Episode 22

22 - Complicated Waste

Dealing with QA and Bad parts, Over-Complication Waste, Blowing your AI Credits, and the Evolution of Pants Man

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HOSTS

Jem Freeman

Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia

Like Butter | Instagram | More Links


Justin Brouillette

Portland, Oregon, USA

PDX CNC | Instagram | More Links

Transcript
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Just got to put my ears in,

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Oh,

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hey,

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pretty good.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Good.

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Good.

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Got my coffee.

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Hierarchy.

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gonna say.

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Can you hear the

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Percussive tones of a nail gun.

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Putting together, these kinda a cool fast project.

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The mill room has always been basically just chaos around the operator area.

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There's like one work bench.

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There's like a tool cart and that's basically it.

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So there's like no work surfaces to like, I dunno, there's no way to be organized.

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It seems like.

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And so since we built that room with like open stud walls, I'd always intended

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to like put something between them.

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Cause it's just plastic on one side.

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So we were gonna cut some stuff the other day and I just threw together

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all these little tool holder holders, and then like an organizing Iraq.

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That's what he is nailing together right now is like these little things that'll

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go in between the studs to organize tools.

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So can get rid of the cart.

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Cause it's just kind of taken up floor space underneath this corner.

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Doesn't really work very well in there.

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It's a pretty small booth you've made right around the machine.

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Yeah.

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It's like, it's like we took and added like, not quite half a

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meter around it on two sides and

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Mm

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a meter and a half on the other side.

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It's not much.

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that's cool.

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It does look like a very neat little room though.

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The plastic.

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it's satisfying.

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It makes it feel fancy.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It looks good on the gram.

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yeah.

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Right.

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I've always intended to light it better, but I tried to put some strip

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lights across the top and it, like, I thought it was gonna shine down

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it better and it never really did

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yeah, that can be a bit hit.

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And miss that twin wall call loop, can make it look pretty awful.

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Yeah, definitely.

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What are you up?

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Oh, just noodling around Saturday morning.

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At a Thursday night after work, I came back here with my daughter and we

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made a few little projects for home.

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Hmm.

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And then I got, got back home and tried to assemble the thing we made.

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We'd made some parts on the pencil sharper and I got home.

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I was like, well this is not actually gonna go together.

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The thread tolerance on these is stuff like way too loose.

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These threads are just stripping out.

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And so I had a sort of slight moment of panic of like thinking about how

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many hours the pencil sharpener has done this week of production parts.

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And then I was holding these parts in my hand of like, these are rubbish.

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Oh.

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I was just like put them down.

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I'll look at them.

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When I go into record on Saturday

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Panic panic.

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Panic.

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just imagining like this, this huge pile part that I knew was sitting there.

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Anyway, so I came in this morning and checked, poked around and

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I think we do have an issue.

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It's not as bad as I thought it was.

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But I think we've got more tool run out, you know, as I've spoken about

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before that the the run out adjustment on the pencil, sharp tends to just

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involve beating things with a stick.

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And I think we've, the run out might have prepped and we, we haven't

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been Q seeing it and it might be at a point, it might be at a point

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where it's past its tolerance range.

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Anyway, I'll look at it more in more detail next week, but.

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Crisis averted, I think, but we probably need to go through and check a few hundred

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parts as well on just actually QC them.

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So

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Yeah.

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we'll see.

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But it did, it got me thinking about QC processes and the fact

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that we don't really have any,

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Mm-hmm

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When I used to run the pencil sharper for production, I used to have this like,

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test that I did where I'd take two parts, put them in a shelf and like try and

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talk them as hard as I possibly could.

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And if I couldn't strip them, then I was like, QC passed and if

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I could strip them with my grip strength, then it was like fail.

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So,

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the gem standard.

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mm.

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Does it break?

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Can I climb on it?

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All those classic.

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Oh, now, now I'm dreaming like ways you could like have a little, an offshoot,

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so they'd stay in an order and you could see like where you needed to go back to.

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Where they're trash at when you do like longer rods, how do those unload and

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They just fall into a pile on the floor.

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That's like a pile of pickup sticks.

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Yeah.

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Basically dust collection's so poor on that machine that it leaves like this

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beautiful nest of stringy chips on the floor that like a nice soft actor,

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soft fall as the parts fall into it.

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You should use that as packaging material,

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Yeah.

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Good.

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So yeah, crisis averted for now, I think, but we'll see.

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yeah, no, that's terrifying.

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I mean, I've had those moments happened last year.

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Well, last couple years, I think it was last year where

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the router just, it always.

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Basically spot on and it's like X and Y dimensions for whatever it

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needed to, you know, like 10 or 20 th pretty good for a router.

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And and then all of a sudden it was just like parts were coming out like different.

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And we were like, oh no.

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Cause in one particular case, it was like a rerunning, this customer's part.

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And he had noticed it when he stacked him up and they weren't lining up.

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And I was like, oh, what, why aren't they lining, you know, like

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one would be a little bit off.

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And so we did like a whole walk back through all the things.

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And one of the things that shops recommended was to replace the like

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little bearings at the end of the, and there's shims in there, I guess, too.

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And I, I didn't touch any of this.

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Somebody did it.

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It's not here anymore, but wrote it down and they're really good about

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helping you through those things.

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So that fixed most of that inaccuracy.

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But I just, now I'm thinking like, oh, how long until that happens again, you know,

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Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Mm.

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Do you do any, like if you are machining at customer part, do you

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do any post machining verification?

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Do you have

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For the vast majority of our time with like wood and the CNC router, rarely it'd

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be like a crossover of like somebody that typically works in other materials, right?

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An engineer for like some company.

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And they give us like some specification that's like really

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rare, but, and then we would have to like usually have to walk it back and

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go, well, we can't do that on wood.

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You know, I can't do five thou plus or minus.

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And we get to a place where we're both comfortable, but then we would be,

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you know, pretty careful about that.

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I've never provided a certification.

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Oh, no,

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or anything like that until we started doing a couple geometry jobs and

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then luckily Andy was here and he was like, here's how you do these.

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Cause I was like, I have no idea.

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QA usually involves like quality of edges for us and surfaces look good.

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And

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Yeah,

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yeah.

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no, I don't.

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Yeah, like, obviously we're not, neither of us are in a position where we'd be

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like doing any sort of certification, but like, I suppose maybe it's just

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a distrust of Mach of the machines.

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But like when I was machining stuff, I would often just like, walk over to the

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machine with the calibers and like stick calibers in whole depth check rebates,

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like throw a tape measure on things like in quite a sort of distrustful

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way of like, what is, you know, what's it actually machining and just like,

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oh yeah, it's it's doing as expected.

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Cool, cool.

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There's that great line?

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I think it was from the bottom of like trust, but verify, which has

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become a bit of a staple here in team meetings of like trust the process,

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but still verify it like double check.

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And I think that's how I like to machine parts is.

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Yeah.

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It's been an interesting, what's what's fun about the mill for me

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anyway, from coming from the router is you can stop it pretty often.

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Like you could stop a router at any time and move it and verify, but

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I, I have a different sense of, I guess it's an urgency because like

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usually the whole down vacuum is running probably cuz it's loud to some

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degree, you know, like you hear it.

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It's using a lot of energy.

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If you turn it.

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The part's gonna move and be in a different position, potentially all

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that kinda stuff that like, it feels different than how, like, when you fix

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your something mechanically in a mill and you open the door and you can just

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like, let it sit there until tomorrow.

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like, it doesn't matter.

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It's a different feeling for sure.

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I know I, people get into like

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know what you

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mean.

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of heat and all that stuff, but our, our room keeps it pretty

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consistent for what we need it to do.

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\ Yep.

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that is, that is nice.

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Mm.

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Yeah, totally know what you mean about the vacuum?

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Like there's a sense of urgency is like, right.

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Let's just get this sheet done.

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Don't pause it.

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Don't look at it too hard.

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Something might move.

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Speaking of, I, this has been widely told, but I don't know if you heard this.

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My friend, Nick PKI who I messaged with a lot.

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He has a machine shop in Florida and he bought a new Datron this year.

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And I know he listens to this, not to make fun of his, his expense, but

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just because he's told it so often that it's very expensive, you know, multi

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hundred thousand dollars machine and he was machining this big flat piece,

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a very thin piece of aluminum, I think.

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And he didn't look at the last few digits on like, it's like 60, 61

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T six, 11 T 11, or I don't know what that, I haven't even know.

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I haven't gotten that far down that list, but apparently that means

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that like has more stress in it.

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So he re while it was still vacuumed down on the Tron, it,

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it released so much stress.

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It popped up into the spindle, jacked the tool holder up and welded it

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to the spindle within like, I think it was the second day you had it.

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And like, who expects that?

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Like, it's so crazy, but yeah.

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Ended up replacing it and it was expensive, but yeah.

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Wild to think about.

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Yeah, I feel sick.

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I have to go for a walk now.

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sorry

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Nice.

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it again.

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I feel your pain

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right.

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welded the tool holder into the

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Like the the faces welded together.

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I think the bottom of the spindle and the, there just a tiny little thing

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too, cause it's like really high speed.

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yeah, rough.

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My, my machining, I posted a few on Instagram, but um, making great progress.

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I don't know how we're looking at a potato camera.

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Probably.

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I don't know how clear this is, but we've got all the,

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potato, potato potato looks great.

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Feature this potato looks great.

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Yeah.

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It works pretty well.

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This wasn't even, this is the old, old fork, obviously, cuz

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it's been sitting on my desk.

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But

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you make that fork?

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Yeah, we make the forks too, which is pretty cool.

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Yeah.

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What I really appreciate and I'm sure you can relate it to is like versus making

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other people's parts in the same day I made, you know, it took me like roughly,

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you know, it wasn't a day of machining.

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It was like a little back and forth like, oh, I should change this.

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I made this one.

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And then realized after we got some stock in that I could make it a

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little bit thinner and then not have to upgrade stock sizes didn't really

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affect anything, but I just like went and changed the parameters updated.

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The cam made this like 10 minutes later so I still have to do the ends, but That

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whole like DFM for your own products is such a nice little, like, you know,

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like, oh, I didn't make it a whole lot of these yet, but I can change it right now.

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Yeah.

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Rapid ish having so good.

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It's been

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How are you doing the backside champs?

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Uh, It's four setups, unfortunately, but I'm working on pallets.

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Yeah.

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I don't know how else you would cuz you need to face both sides or I, I want

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to face both sides working on like a pallet one and done setup for this part.

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And then the base plates, the base plates one's basically done.

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I just need to make it cuz I don't really have a way to

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cut those long, skinny parts.

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Otherwise they're like long flat parts that go underneath, but

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these, I wanna make one pallet that can fit every position.

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So then every time you run it, you're getting like a finished.

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Haven't started that one.

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Yeah.

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Cool

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off extra dreams for you.

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Uhhuh.

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Yeah.

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It's taken me a while, but I I'm enjoying the pallet fixture design process.

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It's not something I've done a whole lot.

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Some but not the same.

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It's different.

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Like for route or stuff, obviously.

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Yeah, that's cool.

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You tried out the rhino eight work in progress, potentially.

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Yeah, dude, I had a moment of frustration during the week of 9 0 7,

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just being that little bit too laggy.

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mm-hmm

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I think it was, it was further and brought to my attention because Laura's been

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shopping for a new laptop this week.

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She's had a surface Microsoft surface for about seven years.

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She's finally.

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I've been jokingly trying to talk her into getting a MacBook all week.

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And she's been very resistant, to shop her around for plasticy laptops.

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But in my moments of like teasing her and like trying to get her to

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buy a Mac, I was like, at the same time, I was quietly frustrated.

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Like, come on rhino, this is annoying.

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And so I had a quick look around on the forums and now I saw some people

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talking about this test metal command that's available in rhino eight.

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Have you tried it?

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Yeah.

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I

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metal thing?

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looked it up again.

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I, I used.

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Months ago, and it was not very good for my experience, but that was months ago.

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And I see they just updated it three days ago.

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So,

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That was good timing of me.

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yeah,

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I've been running right.

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Oh eight for a couple of days.

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It's only crashed a couple of times.

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mm-hmm

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I don't think it's crashed anymore.

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Oh, maybe a little bit more buggy, but way faster response rate in the interface.

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yeah.

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I kept having problems where the screen would turn black or something.

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Like, I would like zoom in, you know, like when you get like annotations in front of

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the screen, it would like kind of do that.

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ah, yeah.

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outta nowhere, all of a sudden it would just be like black screen.

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And I was like, I can't, this is not benefiting me enough at this point.

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But.

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Yeah, I know.

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I, I get that feeling too, of like, I wanna recommend people, you know, and I

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have made these videos about using M one.

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So people like somebody asked me, you know, there'll be a comment on one

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of those videos up for a couple days.

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And some student it's like, I'm going into industrial design school and I'm

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gonna use rhino and solid SolidWorks.

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Do you recommend me to use my M one air?

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And I was like, Ugh, probably not.

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Then I don't like, if you have that computer use it,

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don't go buy some crazy thing.

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Like, but it's, I don't know.

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It's frustrating for sure.

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Like, they're so good performance wise, like we're broker record about

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this, but then you hit the two programs we use every day and it's like hurt.

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I'm gonna take all your Ram.

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I was talking to Josh during the.

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Because we've, it's hot lap season here, which is our

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quarterly sort of staff reviews.

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And we're doing Josh's the other day and talking computers, it's a

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question in the hot laps about like, what do you need from the business?

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So you can performance sort the next level.

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And we got onto the topic of computers and I was like, you, you remember

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there's a, there's a laptop in the budget for you coming up in a month or so.

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And I was joking that it's a M one pro and Josh is quite resistant to that idea.

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And then he is like, how hang on, how much is, how much is an M one pro

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it's like three grand here, minimum.

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And he immediately was like, right.

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Like if you spent that on a desktop, you'd get, and just like quite excited by the

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potential graphics card or whatever that you get in a, a PC desktop for that money.

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So, yeah.

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He doesn't need a laptop either for his job.

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So we might look at a PC desktop for that

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Yeah.

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potentially.

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Yeah.

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I it's been an interesting experience.

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I haven't had that many people, I'd say it's now split about 50 50 of

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people that have no interest in Mac.

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And then, you know, a couple have, and we do have two, two max and

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three PCs, one like ancient tower PC.

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That's just sitting in the shop at the moment doing nothing.

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But it's yeah, it's interesting cuz it's like, if you throw that at somebody

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that doesn't use it or like, it, it, it's kind of like giving 'em the

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wrong hammer for the job, you know?

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like, they're just gonna suck at it and not like it.

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And be mad at you.

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I'm glad you're like us.

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You've got more computers than people are the

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, gotta use one for one task at a time.

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Right?

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Well, truth be told that was the computer.

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My left is, was somebody's and then I just don't have enough

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people at the moment for it.

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So it, it currently sits and prints labels for us.

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It's what it does.

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What have you complicated this week?

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what if I complicated this week?

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That's a good, that was a good segue.

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I'll ruin it by talking about it.

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Um, Oh, complication.

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I think we kind of stemmed off.

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I wrote that down right after we chatted last time related to probably just the

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way like air tables set up and like.

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Some discussion on about fusion, potential features.

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And to me, it represented all of the suggestions by

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users were over complicating.

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What was really desired.

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It was like, I want this one feature to be one click.

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And it gives me this output and there was all this like, well, if

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you export this thing into this program, you can do it with this.

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And I was like, I that's like, no, like and I find that often with the

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way that we can create solutions with air table, like, they're great, but

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you know, like adding a product or it ultimately you get into this place where

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if something is too complicated, it, I just thought, is this just another waste?

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I guess it probably falls into one of the other ones.

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It's either to the point where somebody can't do it.

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If they haven't in, in a complicated situation, right?

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Like you, you either can figure it out or you can't, and it's gonna

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either take you a long time or you're not gonna get it done at all.

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And so that design of whatever system and process to me, that's

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just a whole nother consideration.

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I suppose.

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I already consider some of that, but it seems to need a priority of like, if we're

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gonna do it, it can't be complicated.

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Can't like add to the time of getting the job done significantly,

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whatever that thing is.

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I dunno, just been finding that a lot with our air table stuff.

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I think lately.

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Yeah, I know what you mean.

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We've definitely built a, a beast in air table that is quite unruly at

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times and overcomplicated, and maybe, maybe this is just a defense sort of

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a defense mechanism, but like when people question me about it, which I do

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get questions about it from the team.

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It's like, yes, I know it's too complicated, but we're trying to build

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a system that can cope with our revenue goals, which are X and you know,

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much higher than they currently are.

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We're trying to build a bigger, more complex system that can deal with a

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certain volume of orders and where right now it just feels too complicated and

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Yeah.

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but we kind of, I feel like we have to get to that point so that then we can

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work out how to lean it up again, like we need to over process so we can go.

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Right.

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Okay.

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What's important in this system, we've built bits of it do we actually

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need in order to operate effectively and then like pair it down again.

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So I feel like we're in that sort of expansion phase at the moment

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where we're just kind of building every idea and adding more and

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more ideas on top of each other.

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And then at some point we'll start to go like, cool.

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All right.

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Let's just.

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Take that system that we've built and emulate that one and just

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draw those parts together and make this like beautiful lean system.

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I dunno if we'll ever get to that point, but that's kind of my thinking around it.

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That is, they've started to make things a little bit simpler

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to, I guess, like Redux, right?

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Like revise, like find, find and revise.

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Like, it'll tell you what all the things, when you go to edit something now is

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just playing around with something today.

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I was trying to make a, a simple, like, this is the problem, right?

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I have an email template that sends there's a couple fill-in fields where

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I type in, like, I need a courier to pick up this thing, bring it here.

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So it's like the wood supply vendor bring me less than they will deliver.

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And the courier, you know, will bring it.

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But I it's all built around my email in my email system.

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So I was like, well, can I just build out a little automation through, you

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know, you type in a record line and it's exactly what we're talking about.

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It's like, I'm trying to simplify or make available to like Ricky to be

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able to do this or somebody else and make it repeatable and stuff that

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I don't have to remember to tell somebody, but then ultimately I'm

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making this fairly complicated thing that is kind of forced into a system.

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That's not very customizable.

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If something needs to.

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Changed.

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Mm.

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and I, as you were talking, I guess the other thought I have is we keep

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talking about the idea of removing things instead of adding, and then you talked

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about how you're in the expansion phase.

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And I, like, I think that's totally accurate, but I also have had this thought

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for a long time, like, how do I remove and simplify, our main air table bases?

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Can I, I wanna like duplicate them only parts of them and start over in a new one.

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But like, I don't know if that's possible, you know, without like

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rebuilding everything specifically,

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yeah, yeah.

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I dunno the best approach to that either.

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Like, yeah.

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My default is, you know, with my to-do list is to start over and build

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a fresh one on a somewhere else in a clean base for, in a clean program.

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you knew.

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And I would probably apply a similar logic to air table if I had to sort

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of start from scratch and rethink it.

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Yeah.

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yeah, I don't, yeah, we're not yet in that removal phase.

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I don't think we're their table, but at some point will need to be like

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we've, I don't know, a listener on the podcast had reached out about the

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product launch list that I'd mentioned.

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And he was like, oh, I'd love to see that just out of interest.

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Sounds like you've you guys have worked it out.

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I was like, I sent him a screenshot, sent a screenshot of like, this

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is, you know, this is the list and this is why I find it overwhelming.

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And he was sort of, you know, it's a huge list, but then he was, he

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was saying, you know, like, why don't you guys sell your air table?

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As a template.

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It's like, yeah, we've, we've thought about it.

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Same.

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Yeah.

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We wouldn't wanna support it in any way.

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Yes.

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But you, there is potential that we could, you know, give it to someone

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as a, sort of a jumping off point.

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I've made videos, you've made videos too, but like made blog posts and

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like shared different bits of it.

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And we've talked about this before.

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It's, it's easy to share parts and they've tried to make it

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so you can templatize things.

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And I think some of it's naivety and you figure out how to add stuff

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on to this beast of an air table, but then, like we're saying, it's

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hard to remove things from that or.

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Simplify it in a way.

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And the only thing I've ever thought of, I've said this before, I think

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here too, to show how I built or to give what I've we've made, which is

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good in like all these different ways.

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There's definitely junk and detri try this, that doesn't work, but would

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be to like make a, make a course or a recorded thing where it's like,

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here's, these different segments.

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Here's how they interate, because everybody's gonna need

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a little bit different thing.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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while it's flexible, a lot of the interrelated automations

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will just implode if you start to change too much out of them.

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so yeah.

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I don't know that it's that feasible, honestly, at this point,

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it'd be nice if they could do that, but.

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Yeah.

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What stable diffusion.

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I haven't played with it too much.

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But I think it was a podcast I was listening to was, you know, they were

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talking about Dolly and different versions of these technologies.

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That's like rapidly evolving right now.

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And the stable diffusion one came up.

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I don't honestly remember what was unique about it, but I was like, oh, this is

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related to what we've been talking about.

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It seems just like another version of

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what is already out there.

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Oh, I know.

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The other thing that was interesting about this AI discussion was this was on

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cortex, which is CGP gray and Mike Hurley.

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And they kinda just talk about random technology things and their interests.

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And they were talking about Dolly and stable diffusion.

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And this other one, I don't remember.

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It's like three or four now.

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And.

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Like one of the hosts was really against the whole idea that like, it's,

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you know, it's gonna replace jobs.

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Okay, sure.

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That's gonna happen with technology.

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And then they basically stumbled down this like article that somebody had found

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live on the show of how this dead artists work had basically been recreated and

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modified and used extensively in creating these other images that were published

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through these creation algorithms.

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But they were really not that far off, like, I know Dolly's ethics

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statements are, you know, we are not gonna recreate people, right.

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Likenesses of real people.

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And this was even on John Oliver.

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Have you watched that at all the last week

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The cabbage.

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Yes.

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Did you see the cabbage?

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Yeah.

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I saw the cabbage.

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Yeah.

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And how, like one of these AI softwares has allowed you to like,

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basically recreate people's likenesses.

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Right?

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So it's like, they're getting so good.

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I think some of the stable effusion con discussion was like, these are so good.

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They're basically impossible to tell what's real and what's fake

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yeah.

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Wow.

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it was just wild

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Yeah.

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Well, I had a, a bender of the first week in DLI this week.

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It was great fun.

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Got access.

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I think I have had, you know, it's been fun watching you use it and you

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have sent excitedly sent me photo

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dumps of bizarre images in slack, which I've, you know, has entertained me.

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But I don't think I got it until I got to use it.

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Like, I don't think I fully understood.

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And it was your talk of the sticker that tipped me over the

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edge, the baby pants sticker.

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When you said you'd made that in Delhi, I was like, oh right.

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You know, you'd have to pay an illustrator to make a thing like that.

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If you weren't capable of drawing in that style.

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Yep.

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And so jumping in this week, I was like, right.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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This is actually a bit of a game changer for certain things.

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And I blew my mom's credits in about 48 hours.

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You can

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see.

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Yeah.

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things over the lunch table, which was greatly entertaining as well.

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New prison tattoos for the staff.

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But yeah, it's pretty amazing.

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I don't, I was talking to my mom about it and she's a visual artist, a print

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maker, I was showing her and she was a bit blown away and we're talking about it.

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I don't, you know, I don't feel like it risks, poses any risk to an art

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practice because it's just another tool.

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But if I was a, you know, an illustrator or a graphic designer, I think I'd be,

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feel threatened by its abilities for sure.

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But at the same time, is it just another tool that you just have

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to get good at using and just becomes part of your tool set?

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I dunno.

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It's

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I can't remember.

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I think I've said it in some version of this, but after playing around with

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it, like you said, your eyes kind of through mind, starts to think about it.

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Like I started to think like, ] if any of you have noticed, I make a

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lot of the chapter images with Dolly, like whenever I just have a thought

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about how to create what would be interesting related to this thing,

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I'll type it in just for my curiosity.

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But yeah, that's kind of how I got into making the pants.

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Man was just endless.

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It was one night, my wife and I were watching something like severance on TV.

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And I was just like laughing.

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Endlessly at the, I mean, there are a lot of hilarious ones and

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I can probably share some of 'em.

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And I guess my, the, to finish my thought on that, the thing that it

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immediately started to generate for me in the past, you know, weeks since then

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have been, I've literally legitimately thought, I would love a version of this

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to create 3d models of wrote things that I don't wanna spend time to like,

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like model myself, like I wanna model

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of, you know and that's gotta be something, you know, that is

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something I've thought about.

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And then videos just like short videos, stock footage.

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And that was the other thing that Mike and and CGP great talked about

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is like, this is gonna completely replace the stock photo market.

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Like you're not gonna need it anymore.

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The year just saying footage like stock footage just made me think.

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Have you read that William Gibson book, pattern recognition.

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It sounds familiar.

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One of my favorite books and it's, it's, you know, a lot of it's about the creation

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of video footage and people not being able to tell if it's real or made from

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scratch and I won't spoil it, but yeah, it's always been a really intriguing idea

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to me of, you know, cuz I used to make short films and animations and stuff.

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So I've always been interested in creation of visual assets,

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particularly video photography.

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But that I love, love, love that space where you can't tell

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whether something's real or not.

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Like that used to be my whole sort of stick with photography was like

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trying to create CG effects, but with no CG involved in photography,

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Yeah

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And not being able to tell if it was computer generated or not.

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that was always my interest with renderings.

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Like I never got, I mean, in school I would get really into making some, which

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I would never like rendering a whole building in a cityscape is one thing.

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And I was somewhat interested in that.

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But as you can tell by what I'm doing now, I'd always be like, let's make a desk and

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make that rendered really well in a scene.

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and that's how I got, like, that would always be my interest and I, it it's

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always flattering and fun when somebody has no idea that it's a rendering like,

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oh, where'd you take those photos at?

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And it's like, oh, that's just a render.

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You know, , it's always nice.

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yeah.

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I get the opposite questions too, of like, wow.

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How are you rendering these, these look really good.

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Do you using fusion?

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It's like, ah, that's a photo.

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I think because I've mixed things up a little bit on Instagram and there's a few

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renderings sprinkled in here and there

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you've won.

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people off the SC.

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Nobody has any idea anymore.

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And it's, that's kind of, I guess, more I don't know, I'm not worried

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about it necessarily, but this, the progress in these things does, does

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make me think like, you know, SIM maybe there'll be a geometry, right?

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For like maybe geometry will have a version of an AI generator.

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That's like, You know, I need these parts and it will both generate them for you

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and say, you know, in half an hour, it'll 10 minutes or five minutes, or maybe it

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get really fast, it'll be 60 seconds.

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It'll generate the whole model and say, we'll make this for you in two

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days, you know, out of stainless steel.

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And you're like, oh God, that's crazy.

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And all of the design was taken out.

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Yeah.

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Maybe one day, maybe, you know,

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what have

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tough up my coffee real quick.

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Yeah, sure.

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One sec.

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So the.

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not Woohoo.

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It's good.

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What have you been, is there anything you've been researching that this last

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week that's unique, different progress?

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some good research time, just, you know, trying to learn.

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How it's done and look at different ways of doing it.

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It was really just a YouTube deep dive, one early morning, over a lot of coffee,

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taking notes on temperatures and,

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Yeah.

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But yeah, I'm at the point now where I just need to start cutting

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up a few of those black tubes and get some test batches running.

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Yeah.

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So that'll be my job next week, I think is make a little, no, I'm not

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gonna bother making a rig to cut it.

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I was gonna say, I need to make a rig to be able to cut the tube, but

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I'm just gonna hack it up initially.

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Just get a circular sore and

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asking.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I was gonna say, how do you cut that?

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cut some tube.

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Like a

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whole

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ultimately I'll make some sort of rolling rig with a fixed blade and

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you can just like a giant tube cutter.

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It obviously needs to be, cause you're gonna need to rotate these, you know?

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Right.

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And so in your whole method of being as energy efficient as possible, you need

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a stationary bike that people take turns riding that helps to spin the wheel,

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sure.

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Yeah.

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Huge gear reduction through pedals for 10 minutes and it

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gets one revolution.

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yeah.

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yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, no, that's about it for me this week.

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Bit of compost research and standing to think about that.

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Yeah.

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What about you?

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I've been researching a lot of machining things, luckily asking

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friends most of it, but like I was, I've never used a reamer before.

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Have you, have you ever used a reamer?

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As far as I understand, they're like a really accurate way to

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make a hole to the proper diameter is like strange to me still

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a high speed ill drill is very inaccurate.

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Like it may hit the hole, right.

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But it can wander at the bottom it'll wobble.

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So like, I was trying to make these pins at the bottom here.

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These are alignment holes, and I just used, I spot drilled 'em then

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drilled them with a drill and.

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Put gauge pins in and they're like, what, three or four thousands larger than they

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should be, which doesn't me seem like much, but it makes it not so aligned.

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not that I'm like super concerned, but the point would be that it's

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not wobbling around on people.

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Which would make you less sure of its alignment, I suppose.

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Must have a bit of tolerance though, right?

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With those things, like the position of the tool holder.

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yeah.

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got a fair bit of grace,

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Oh for sure.

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Yeah.

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And the top

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isn't perfect either, but I like to start, I like my foundation to be good.

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At least

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Yes, no, no, totally.

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So you reaming before?

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No, that's just for the index pins.

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You're not reaming before tapping that's just for the positional pins.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Gotcha.

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I did.

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I did the tapping.

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I'd.

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Form tapped blind holes before.

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So that was pretty exciting on the top of these.

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And every time it happens, I started the cycle for that.

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Like it changed the tool and it's on optional stop.

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And it just like that machine rapid so fast, I'm sitting there holding feed

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hold and, and I was like, oh, well, you know, I just gotta let it go.

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And then I had cranked the feed rate down, just normally running through everything.

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I keep it real low, but I was like, is it gonna take over and like

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adjust to a hundred percent or is that gonna screw up the twist?

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And like, then it, and so I just cranked it to a hundred

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reels quick and it was fine.

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Cause you can't tell it all it's covered and coolant.

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You have no idea if it breaks until it's basically done.

Speaker:

But they both were great.

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So every time I just like pray that I calculated it right.

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How much did you spend on that mill?

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To buy directly it's Val like roughly 25,000 is the number

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that it's equivalent to,

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I wow.

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the truth about the whole, like used to be buy the machine and you can very

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easily spend as much as the machine, I guess, in this case, if it was

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new, it was supposed to be 70,000.

Speaker:

Probably half of the machines value in accessories and, and like work

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holding and tooling, like totally true.

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It's absurd.

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How fast it goes.

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Very crazy.

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So it is a $70,000 machine

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yeah, basically.

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Yeah.

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It's crazy how fast

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I had to

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you went and bought one?

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No, no, no.

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But if you went and bought one new, how much would it be?

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It was 70,000 in 2015.

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So I don't know what the equivalent is now.

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Yeah.

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Sweet.

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Yeah, no, it's I was thinking yesterday about just all that I've

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heard about different machines and like, it's just so capable.

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I'm so like lucky that I got it for a good deal from a friend slash client

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that like, I've definitely not taken advantage of it's of it's it's mostly

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been sitting there and I feel stupid about that, but like, now that I'm finally

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getting into like, making real things that we can sell, like, it feels awesome.

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Like we're so excited to like, just be, be running things

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rather than like testing things.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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Yeah.

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Very cool.

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Well I still want one Monday.

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I'll get a.

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Yeah, I bet you're similar to me that, like I knew I wanted it when

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it was offered, but I , I kept, we kept having this discussion here

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of like, what would we do with it?

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Like trying to make a business case for it.

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And in some regards it kept being like, I guess we have to get it and play with it.

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Cuz like nobody could think of any products to make or like, you know,

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we didn't have experience making job shop parts and it's, that's a whole

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other competitive game than wood parts.

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And

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honestly it took me, I wanna say close to a year before.

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I really started to think like, oh, I could make these parts as a

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product and this machine could do it.

Speaker:

That's a tough sell up front, right.

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To throw on that kind of money.

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absolutely.

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Yep.

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What would.

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Do you have thoughts of what you would get one for other than experimenting?

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No, I'm I'm in the same boat.

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I've never been able to come up with a business case.

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for one it's more just.

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It just feels like the next logical thing that I'd like to learn.

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Really.

Speaker:

I like learning new things and that feels like the next adventure.

Speaker:

I agree with that for

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sure.

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Yeah

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yeah, no, I've got, no, I think I've, I've only ever come up with

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one part that I've thought about, but yeah, realistically, and it would

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just be a matter of experimentation and seeing what, what came up.

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But

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know.

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yeah.

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But on the timber machining side of things, we are about

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to max out our capacity.

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We've got obviously two, two routers plus the pencil.

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She, and we've got a job that's about to start that I worked out

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on Thursday is nine hours of sorry.

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Nine weeks of machine time on one machine.

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Yeah.

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And so we have to work out how we're gonna schedule all our other work around that.

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Cuz I think we've got six weeks to finish the job.

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So two machines running flat out, it would be four and a half weeks,

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but we don't have, we've got a lot of other stuff to do as well.

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So we can't just dedicate to machines to it.

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So I suspect we might have some split shifts or extra days of machine

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time coming up to deal with that.

Speaker:

We did a similar job about a year ago for the same client.

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And I think I ended up just coming in on a few about a month's worth

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of weekends and just running it all.

Speaker:

But that job was about half the size of this one.

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So

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Oh,

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we'll see.

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Oh.

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We've the only time we ever really had a problem like that,

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we had just moved into this shop.

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There was two and a half people, including myself.

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We had piled all this stuff in here and it was like barely organized.

Speaker:

We're trying to build a room, you know, like all the final moving stuff.

Speaker:

And I had a call from what turned out to be one of our best clients.

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It was like a movie production company and they needed all these wooden

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parts made for Versace basically.

Speaker:

And I thought he was joking when he told me how many at first

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I was like, yeah, whatever.

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Sure.

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No way.

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I don't believe just like, okay, I'll send you a quote and then like

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accepted it and paid the deposit in like 12 hours after that.

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And I was like, I had agreed basically, like we could finish it in a certain

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amount of time, like a couple weeks.

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So that was insane because we basically were trying to like

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a, we didn't have a forklift.

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So it was like a hundred sheet of plywood figured out how to unload

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it, get it into the space that there was like no room for it.

Speaker:

Also figuring out how to move them on, you know, shuffle parts around and

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learned a lot from that experience.

Speaker:

But we definitely did some kind of like half night shifts.

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Just kinda like somebody would come in later in the afternoon

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and then work till like 10:00 PM.

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But

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That's what we'll probably end up doing too.

Speaker:

I think extending the day.

Speaker:

yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's a bit, it's an interesting one where like, in all our sort of business

Speaker:

development we've done over the last year, we've sort of identified, started

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to identify what our sweet spot is in terms of a job, what a job looks like.

Speaker:

And this whilst it's awesome to have, you know, a big job with lots of machine time.

Speaker:

It's definitely not our ideal.

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Job in terms of maintaining like good production flow and consistency.

Speaker:

Like we've got, it's, there's 700 sheets in this and we've got half of

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those sitting on our floor already.

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And they've been here for like four weeks now because the client delayed

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completing the files for about four weeks.

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The timeline, man.

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I absolutely pushes out the timeline, no doubt, but it also

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happy to push out the timeline,

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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we've also had 350 sheets of plywood sitting

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Oh my God.

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on the floor, waiting for this job to drop and with another 350

Speaker:

incoming from the supplier, whenever we can manage to fit them in.

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So

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Is it like 18

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So that's 15 or 16 lifts of material.

Speaker:

That's crazy.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think it's 24 packs or something.

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It's really, but yeah, no good, good for spindle up time, but definitely not

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ideal in terms of smooth production.

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This is why I've always felt like I was bad at the job.

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Shop world was I have the same reaction as well as like we've

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rarely win those kind of jobs.

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And.

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You know, you always just hear about, you know, the more you can run one job

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or one side up, the more profitable it is and all these kind of like mantras

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around spend AUP time and you know, all those things and you describing that.

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Yeah.

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You might be the first person I've ever heard besides myself.

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That's like, yeah, I don't know.

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We don't like those jobs.

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, you know, they're not as like, they're not as, it's probably more emotional, I

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think in a business owner sense of like, sure, the money's good, but it's also puts

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a stress on if you're not ready for it.

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You're not built for it.

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Like

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Yeah.

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it's hard to, the morale can suffer.

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I mean, when we went through that one huge job or every time those

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jobs would come through, I completely give credit to like the whole team

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was always like stoked to do it.

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Cause it was a great job for us and it was cool to work on those projects.

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And so we'd always fly through it, which is cool and find ways like we like.

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I think it was 30% of the original cut time for a sheet that we figured out

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how to like, you know, run it down to.

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So,

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Yeah.

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Yeah, no that, yeah, that side of it can be great, like finding

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efficiencies and yeah, there's something exciting too, about a big Bush.

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Like if you can sort of get on board with it and not let it be a chore,

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but let it sort of, sort of tap into the excitement of that, then it can

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be a positive thing too, as well.

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For sure.

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yeah,

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Yeah.

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so I, I just realized I haven't, I mean, I think I told my wife, but I decided

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to not go to IMTS because just money, it's just a lot to like go and be away.

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And we're also kind of like in the heat of trying to get a couple products out.

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But I have incredible FOMO just like.

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Constantly everybody talking about all, you know, on podcasts or like the

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discord that, just everybody talking about what they're gonna go look at.

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And I do not need to buy anything, which is also a good reason to not go,

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but I'm just like constantly thinking like, ah, man, I wonder if I can make

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that work probably should dunk to it.

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Like, it just sounds like a ton of fun.

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Like after having met a bunch of people in the UK and it just kind

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of sparked that desire to see people see stuff again, since it's been so

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long, like opened up the floodgates of thinking about all these cool things.

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So yeah.

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Trying to tamp that down.

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Sounds like a good call, but I understand

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'd love.

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I'd love to go to one, one.

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It sounds like they're just ridiculously huge.

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Yeah.

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I mean the only version I've gone to.

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Is the one, the AWFs in Vegas, which is, I would not consider

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that enormous in terms of a show.

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So it's, it's compared to what I've heard about like emo and IMDs where

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it's like there's sub basements of things as well as multiple floors

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and like seemingly miles of other things that you can see there too.

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So yeah, it'd just be cool.

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I mean, I, I think I could manage to not buy something significant

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because money, but I could also see buying a bunch of small things on,

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you know, like little like work, life benefit, things that also, I probably

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don't need to be buying right now.

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I think you've made the right call.

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Stay home and hustle.

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Get products out the

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It's not fun, but it works.

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It works to make money.

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Good.

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All right.

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So I, one more thing

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the show app corner I saw post some YouTube video.

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It's kinda like how I found those Mac apps before.

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But it's this app called shotter it's for taking screenshots on Mac specifically,

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so sorry, all your windows people, but it's speaking of the benefits of M one,

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this app is made for it and it is absurdly fast to take a screenshot, edit it.

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And it's like, you know, all these things, they seem kind

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of silly and nuanced to first.

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I was like, why don't you just use the built in one?

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But then you see like what you can do with it.

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It does have text recognition, which is kind of cool or like QR codes.

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So you don't even need that other one I've been using the text sniper.

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It does that for you call outs.

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And like you can measure pixels on the screen between things which probably not

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super useful unless you're doing marketing or graphic design, but it's just really,

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really fast, which I've kind of had a gripe with the, I used green shot before,

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and then just the preview grab thing and, and Mac has been slow, so it's free

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and you can also pull out colors and you can blur or remove text like AI style.

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Sweet.

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I'll check

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pretty nifty.

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I've already installed it.

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So I'll report

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it's done.

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I'm.

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to the line listeners while gem noodles around trying out a new program on it.

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Live product reviews would be terrible.

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God, hold on.

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I can't get the box open.

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Okay.

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It's not working.

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Justin, how do you do this?

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You may find this interesting.

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Think I got a YouTube ad for Ion.

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And I didn't sign up to do it, but they have some type of like online

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manufacturing process builder.

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So you can like design a system to do robotics, or they have all these different

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examples machine tending palletizing.

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And I guess it, from their examples, it looks like it's like a 3d

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building space in the browser.

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So you can like use extrusions and put a robot arm in.

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And then it says a cart total, I guess, at that point too, which is pretty crazy.

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So I was, I was thinking you may, maybe there's like a process that you've beening

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of that I know related to the pencil sharpener with like the pencil box or

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Ah,

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I don't know, just thought it was an interesting little tool.

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ah, cool.

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Oh wow.

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Floor layouts.

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This is

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process lines.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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I dunno.

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I.

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I thought I could just play with it.

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And then I was like, sign up and I was like, Ugh,

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that's pretty cool.

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I dunno what it is, but it looks cool.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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I have the same feeling

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Did you ever play that game factor?

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now I will news game

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Oh, sorry.

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Facto.

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Sounds fun.

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I played a lot of like rollercoaster take in.

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I, I had a lot of fun with this for a few weeks.

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you build factories?

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Yeah.

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Oh, my, this is like the most like capitalist thing in the world.

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But other than those Shopkin toys for kids or the whole

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premise is they just go shopping.

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What in the world?

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It's very fun.

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Game process.

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crazy images.

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Oh, you already did it.

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I have there's too many things.

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It feels like I spent a long time since we talked, but it's just been a week.

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I don't know why.

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I was reminded of my favorite podcast episode and I don't

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remember don't hold me to this.

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If it's like appropriate for today's audiences.

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Like, you know how, like sometimes in the past old things are like, say

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things that we wouldn't say today.

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But it just has a good memory for me.

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It's from the podcast, you look nice today.

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I've never

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never heard of

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it.

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Yeah.

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It's pretty, pretty nuanced.

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But there's this one episode and it may not be funny, I suppose,

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if you haven't heard the rest of 'em, but it's called baby on a dog.

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I don't know if by me explaining, it's gonna make it funny,

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but I'll put it in the show.

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Now you can listen to it.

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It's it's basically the experience of going to the most awkward restaurant

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you could imagine, and like what that would be like, and they describe it.

Speaker:

And anyway, it's, it's all, it's a, it's a humor podcast thought of improv,

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Oh yeah.

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I'll check it out.

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but I should probably go, I didn't, I've been tending to.

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Some good R and D time this morning.

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And then I got here late and now I'm gonna do it anyway.

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Screw the screw, the diary.

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Screw the default diary who needs that?

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Um,

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yeah.

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Go and do some R and D

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I'm gonna go poke around the pencil sharper.

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Oh, fun.

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Nice.

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All right.

Speaker:

Have a great day.

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Bye.

Speaker:

Do you do any Dolly about the pencil sharpener yet?

Speaker:

Yeah, I tried.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Parts Department
Parts Department
Justin Brouillette (Portland CNC) and Jem Freeman (Like Butter) discuss CNC machines, their product design and manufacturing businesses, and every kind of tool that they fancy.

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About your hosts

Profile picture for Jem Freeman

Jem Freeman

Co-founder and director of Like Butter, a CNC focussed timber design and manufacturing business in their purpose-built solar-powered workshop. Castlemaine, VIC, Australia.
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Justin Brouillette

Founder of Portland CNC & Nack