Episode 23

23 - Boss for a Day

The guys consider switching positions with the team, number sequencing in G-code, how to embrace change, and have a new Subreddit!

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Show Info


HOSTS

Jem Freeman

Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia

Like Butter | Instagram | More Links


Justin Brouillette

Portland, Oregon, USA

PDX CNC | Instagram | More Links

Transcript
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!?Shift command in sound sound engaged, sync caster link flicking clicking.

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Now.

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Good morning.

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Good morning.

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You like my transition

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That was great.

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transition?

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Supposed to wear, like be wearing something like really

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seductive after that though.

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I think just like the talkers

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I did get pretty wet on the way in, so, you know, you're lucky

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I've got clothes on it all.

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you wipe it down and it just, you see the hoodie and then the hoodie's gone.

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You just have the coveralls.

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making content already.

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Can't wait my clap first for, for once

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Let's do that.

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3, 2, 1,

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Oh,

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Hmm.

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How.

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pretty good.

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Rick he's at today.

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So just me and I'm got locked into a lot of computer work and I was like

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those days when I was just quiet and.

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Focused.

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It's like a weekend basically, but I'm still here working

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Mm, nice stays off in the shop.

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Yeah,

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there you go.

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What are you working on?

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Uh, The Shopify build thing, I can't decide on a theme, so that kind

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of like stops the whole workflow.

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There's so many options.

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I was chatting with Jay a little bit about some advice on slack and they were

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just

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like, just like, I use this one.

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Cause I like it.

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Cuz there's just so many and I have a good experience with the yeah.

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All right.

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That makes sense.

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Yeah.

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I think that's what it's about.

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Ultimately

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Yeah.

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is just committing to one that doesn't.

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Terrible

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It it, yeah, they don't look terrible.

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Like there's a couple I like, but it's interesting how

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variable the feature sets are.

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And like, what's all built in already.

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Like you're saying, like, I don't wanna customize it to death, but you can't

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start to build a page with this new 2.0 theme system saying that has all

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the cool, like blocks or whatever they call 'em without choosing a theme.

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So , it's kind of a chicken and egg thing.

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Sometimes

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Did you look at flex

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I I look at it, but also I just don't wanna, like, I don't wanna

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have the same one as you guys, huh?

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Yes, we'll be judged harshly.

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If we have the same

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people

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everyone will notice.

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I mean, we've told them now, so

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it's over.

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Just everybody that listens to this has the same Shopify theme.

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Burn it, burn it down.

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Shouldn't shouldn't have told us.

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I have a little surprise top of the top of the list here.

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I created a subreddit for the podcast,

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insert cricket sample.

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I don't have that one yet.

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Have this

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I don't That was what you needed at the start.

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As I revealed my

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we'll put that in later.

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soggy self.

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Cut that

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in

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about it.

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Dang it.

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That would've been perfect.

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I'm gonna sound either old or I don't know what what's a subreddit.

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So well, we're, it's just the kind of like place in Reddit where there's like

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a topic that you can then subscribe to and make posts and comments.

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I'll send you a link.

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Is red.

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Is, is Reddit a place where you hang out?

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Eh, it used to a lot more.

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I don't know.

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I, I guess, I don't know, it's like zeitgeist use, but it used

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to be like the viral place of the internet for a long time.

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Like you would, you know, find stuff there and also things would get published.

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You know, people would want to get like on the front page.

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Cause it's just millions of people seeing that.

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And

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Okay.

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I'm not trying to go viral here, but just, I know other podcasts

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that have a subreddit and it's a place that's not, well, like I said,

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you can consider it social media.

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I consider it more like a forum where you can communicate

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about things in specific and.

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Maybe not able to use it, but it took all of 10 minutes to set up.

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So I'm just gonna, gonna leave it in the show notes.

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but I did completely skip your how are you doing segment?

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And because I was excited about the sub ire, it

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I didn't understand.

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How are you doing?

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I'm okay.

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Yeah.

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Been better?

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Yeah, No, I'm alright.

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I think little, little bit down, I think generally,

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Oh, man.

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Yeah.

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Anything you wanna talk about on the podcast?

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sure.

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I think it's dunno.

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Look, everything's fine generally in the scheme of greater scheme of things.

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But I think I am struggling a little bit with the identity shift of no

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longer being that guy who makes stuff.

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I think the it's been long enough now that I've been off the tools that

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I'm really sort of yeah, struggling a little bit with that transition in

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terms of feeling useful and valuable.

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And also it's just, you know, it's been 15 years of kind of hustling

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and creating things, using tools that has formed my identity.

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Who I think I am.

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So like, Shifting away from that in the current business trajectory

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and model has been a little bit difficult, but that's to be expected.

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Yeah

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yeah,

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I guess my first question is, does it have to be an absolute thing?

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I mean, you, you have choice in these things, so I'm sure you can find

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it's probably just more, I guess, if I had had to kind of read between

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the lines, is that your primary?

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Role and tasks doesn't supply you with the same kind of like what you

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liked the challenge and the kind of like experience of ally doing

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things to create things rather than being on the other side of that.

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yeah.

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There's no really, there's not really any reason why I'm not still able to get

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up early and come in and tinker on the pencil sharpener as I was and feel sort

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of validated in that R and D process.

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But I think there's just a bit of a, sort of a compounding effect

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going on at the moment where I'm not getting up early enough.

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And so I don't do it.

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And then I feel crap about the fact that I haven't done it

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Yeah.

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No, I know that feeling

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on itself a little bit.

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And then, so then I continue to not do it.

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Um, dunno a bit too.

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Unpack there.

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I'm also still reading this less is more book

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Oh, yeah,

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about de-growth and it's, it's heavy going.

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Like, I think it's a really important book to read, but bloody hell.

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It's making me question a lot of things about being in business.

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yeah,

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I'm feeling up and inspired, I see it as you know, I see great

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opportunity and potential to make change and do something important.

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But if I'm not in that sort of bouncy, upstate, it can just be very very

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sobering and depressing as well.

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So, yeah,

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yeah.

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That's interesting.

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Yeah.

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No, I mean, I feel for that, like, I've been there.

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I mean, it's part of why I chose to get away from.

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The job shop work was, I just kind of felt myself sliding into this, like, is this

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what I'm gonna do for the next 20 years?

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Because the longer I felt we were reliant on that, I was never my

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intention in the first place.

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And like, I just didn't.

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I mean, unfortunately, probably the business was never big enough that like,

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was a whole team of people surrounding that thing being supported, like there,

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you know, it could have kept growing.

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And I think the more that kept growing the harder it was to pull away from it.

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Yeah.

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You know, I was talking with some friends about business stuff the other

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day, and it was thinking like, you know, we're all kind of not great at

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business because we choose things so emotionally, you know, I don't want to

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do this other thing that was making us money per and that's basically like the

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only reason, but maybe I should have, maybe that was the best business choice.

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And it's really hard to take that subjectivity out of like, , you

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know, is this what I should be doing versus is that the right?

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Like, if this business is like its own, it's like a child you're trying

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to care for, but you're like, don't really have to care that much for it.

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, you know, like you don't have to always pick the best things for it.

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Yeah,

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Yeah, it's hard.

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I dunno.

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that kind of reminds me of did you on the bomb, John and John were talking

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about Saunders surprised me outta nowhere saying that he's been thinking

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about and not a, not against the idea of hiring a CEO, which was just.

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I mean, like when I think of C and C business people,

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like he's like the CEO to me,

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yeah.

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But I get it.

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I get that.

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I get that.

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And I re read into that, however, incorrectly that could potentially

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be a, a similar response of wanting to stay on the tools

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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He said that

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wanting to be, not wanting to be sucked away into just business strategic stuff.

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think he said specifically, you know, I would've never thought I'd say this, but

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you know, I think of myself as pretty good at business, but I've moved away

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from, and now I'm starting to think I'm.

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Potentially better at machining than I am a business now.

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And I definitely like the machining better and I totally get that.

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It's like every day that I'm stuck just sitting at this computer, it's like, I

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run away at 5:00 PM and like, I gotta finish this part before I go home.

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Like, I just it's like desire to like, I mean, we both came through kind of

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a similar school and you kind of get into that based on your interest in the

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first place where it's so much driven around what you're, I don't know.

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I'm sure you made a lot of physical prototypes, I imagine in school.

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Terrible ones.

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Yeah, you, a lot of hand making things and even my wife she was

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really good at model making and she always like, she sews a lot now.

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And that's like one of the ways she sticks with that, but I don't know.

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I, I can't imagine that going away for me anyway.

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Yeah, no, exactly.

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I made terrible models at school.

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we didn't really, I always joke that we didn't really learn how to make

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anything in, industrial design other than like crappy spray painted MDF models,

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which I used to painted my dorm room.

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No, that's yeah, it's really interesting that point about

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replacing yourself with the CEO.

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Like at the moment, I feel like I really see the value in growing

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a team and like, Like it's been really rewarding, delegating

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big chunks of my role to people.

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Over the last year or so, and seeing them grow, it's been fantastic having

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John replaced me as lead machinist a year or so ago, and just seeing him

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like really flourish in that role and smash it and do really well.

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So like there's great value in doing that and whilst come currently sort

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of really missing being that person.

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So kind of holding both of those things in the one hand of like fantastic to

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see someone develop and grow yeah.

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Whilst also kind of being jealous of the job they get to do.

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And so I think I've done that more and more you know, also with some of the sort

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of production management and also the, some of the business stuff with Sarah.

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So yeah, I think, you know, I was chatting to my coach a little bit about it the

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other day and he was, you know, he was saying, you know, this is just one of

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the transitions you're gonna have to go through and get comfortable with.

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And everything's changing all the time and it's just getting

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used to it and embracing change.

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I don't know,

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I like

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my

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either that or you, or you do the knee jerk reaction and go back

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to like, being a solo operator

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all fired.

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I'm running all the tools.

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goodbye.

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Had, I've had friends do that in their businesses.

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Like they've grown and grown and grown, and then they've got to a point.

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I remember I won't name names, but someone I studied with grew quite

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a successful business, probably around our size in terms of staff.

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yeah,

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And he came back from an overseas trip one day and he was just like, I just wanna go

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back to being the guy on the machine and he shut it all down and closed the, and

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like, and now he is just tinkering away.

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It's just, just him.

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I've had that discussion.

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Multiple friends.

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And, and, you know, I feel like after we moved into this shop,

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things changed for me in that the discussion with my wife and how the

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risk of buying a CNC put when our garage at home and then moved to, you

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know, eventually to this small sublease of a sublease, basically open space

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for a year was like, well, within a year, if it all goes to craft, we can

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afford to pay that, you know, crappy lease and we'll move everything back.

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But now it's like, it's probably bankruptcy, you know, is the only

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out, you know, at this point.

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And That feeling goes away.

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Like, there's definitely, I could find ways to, to run it down, but I

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definitely in our conversation about less versus more, I still have myself

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thinking like, we need a bigger shop, you know, I need a bigger space.

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I want to add more machines, but you know, they're not all even busy at this point.

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So it's like a, there's a kind of a disconnect there for me, for sure.

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Of like my desires versus reality of business.

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So

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Yep.

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I, I got one idea for how you could

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Yeah,

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your hands dirty still every once in a while, as you weekly or

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maybe monthly or something, you, you trade with somebody for a.

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They can be boss for a day and you get to do their job and it would help

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kind of like see the inefficiencies potentially that they're dealing with.

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And then they would potentially get an experience of like what

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it's like to make some decisions.

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I don't know how you give that kind

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of, I don't know.

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I like it.

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Oh, that was a heavy start.

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It's good.

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Cheer.

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Always.

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I've got an update on last week's QC situation on the pencil sharper.

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So after recording last week, I jumped out there and fiddled around.

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So it was, it was what's the expression T R what does that stand for

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So yeah.

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Total ill

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indicated.

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yeah.

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Run out

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it was a, it was a run out issue just on the tops spindles.

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One of them must have taken a bump

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in the last week.

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thankfully John got in on Monday morning was like, oh cool.

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Okay.

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I know which order I machine.

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These boxes are parts in.

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I can go back through and try and work out where the point was.

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And he did work out where the point was, and it wasn't that long ago.

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So thankfully we only lost, I don't know, 10 or 15% of the parts

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Oh yeah.

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from that week, which wasn't too bad.

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It could have been a lot worse.

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And it was a good kind of reminder of how we should be

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curing things and checking stuff.

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And he had that's the thing it wasn't that he hadn't been Q saying

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he was doing it pretty frequently.

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Double checking stuff was so it had happened relatively

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recently and snuck through.

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And then I'd run some legacy code, which had slightly more extreme offsets.

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And so suddenly with the legacy code, it became really apparent that there was

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something wrong, whereas his parts were sort of still just within tolerance.

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And so you hadn't noticed towards the end of the week.

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I would imagine.

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I mean, I know very little about finding ways to do thread checks, but I think

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you can like measure what the inner and the outer threads, but I, I don't

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know how you make that very accurate.

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Like it's not like a go no go gauge other than like your twist test, which would

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still work, but like justing the threads, I guess, but then how you do it on the ID?

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I.

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Yeah.

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I know.

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the plan is to set up some sort of twist test, maybe with a talk wrench.

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So that it's not dependent on, you know, za rock climb, he's

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got very strong grip strength.

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It would be unfair for the

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It's the best product ever.

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the tolerance to be based on his grip strength.

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So yeah, I think get our hands on a little talk wrench and set up

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a little jig so he can just like, boom, boom, drop it in, give it

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be good.

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Yep.

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Passes.

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And then that can be checked, you know, every morning or

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few times a week or something.

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That kind of makes me think.

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Have you watched, you've probably similar to me.

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Like I think I watched this forever go, but it's the first

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shop tour first or second shop tour Saunders does with J Pearson.

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And he is like showing him how they assemble parts and it like now looks

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pretty dated and Pearson's shop is like so different because he is moved

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like twice, but he's just really cool to see like the guy, you know, Pearson

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just has this like clock like brain, but just everything's perfectly set

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up and the processes are perfect.

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And.

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and there's just some really interesting stuff.

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So I'll put a link in, and one of the things he had, they had made a,

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I don't even know the right words, but it's basically like a tour wrench

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style, like thing that they twist in the bottom of their pallets with.

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So instead of trying to align this like little uh, insert it like magnetizes

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to it and you just put it in and twist until it stops and then it's

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perfectly set up and it made me think of your like torque wrench scenario.

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Mm that's cool.

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Yeah.

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I wonder if JP Pearson's like staying, I, I don't, you know, as he developed

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that sort of lean shop those systems, like I wonder whether he was.

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In there late at night after the employees gone, like tinkering with all the

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stations, like making instructions or whether he's the more, the personality

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who's capable of doing that kind of as part of the job, I, I would find it really

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hard to sort of focus in on that level of detail as part of our working day

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what's, what's interesting.

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I mean, that kind of parlays into another discussion I wanted to bring up, but I've

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recently been looking at their website and they have like very few products.

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Like it is, it is very, I mean, there's accessories to those things

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and they make a lot of subassembly parts, I think, but I just kind of like

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impressed as well as jealous of how simplified and good their products are.

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It's just like, we hit, we sell three types of things, that's it?

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You know, like, and it's such a great business that I was surprised I had,

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like, in my head, I was like, oh, they've probably expanded more things.

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You know, , it's like three things.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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I had a moment last night, actually cooking dinner of what if I just

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went in, in the morning and just cold off 90% of the product line.

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so much stuff on our website and a lot of it sells in very low volume.

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How important is

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Yeah, I that's an interesting

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drawing people in?

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does it serve a purpose just to sort of capture attention from

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lots of different people and then pull them into our top sellers?

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Or is it completely superfluous?

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I don't know.

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No.

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kind of like why I've never turned off my desk thing.

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I don't know that it ever had any attention.

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I had a couple good runs of like social media, like probably read it, honestly,

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posts that bring people to your site.

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Right.

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And it's like, if that just goes away and it's a black hole.

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It's probably an SEO hit.

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So, you know, what is the version of that?

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It's like an R P version like this product's dead,

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but check something else out.

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Yeah, I have the same thought.

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Kind of want someone like a really confident marketing person to come

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in and be like, what are you doing?

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Selling this bed?

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Get rid of it.

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how many units do you sell one a month?

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Cool.

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Kill it.

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someone with external perspective who can just whippers into shape.

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I mean, one would, you know, like if it was detracting from your ability to

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make and sell your best products yeah.

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You get rid of it,

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Yeah.

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That's where the gray line is.

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Like it doesn't

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Yeah.

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But it also is like, there's like

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files are developed.

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I've noticed that too.

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It's like, when you have to go back to make something that's full, you

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know, we haven't done it in a while.

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You either make mistakes on making it again,

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Yep.

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nobody can remember and you haven't documented it.

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Well things are, you know, it's like this, it's almost like

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this story of lean over again.

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It's like, you haven't done it enough that you haven't created good enough

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processes that it's I don't know.

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There's definitely something there oh, there's another bomb conversation.

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That was really good.

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And then I think Saunders posed the idea of like, so let's say you got hit by a car

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and we're in a, coma for six months and they hired me to come run your business.

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What would we change?

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What would I have to make those changes?

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It was like really eye opening of What if, you know, like what if some, you know,

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what would I change in your business?

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If I had to come, I'd have to pick up an accent.

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First of all.

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it's a fun, fun experiment.

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I like that.

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Yeah.

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Maybe next week we can report back on the one change we'd make in each

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Ooh.

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What's your one change?

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Counting up machine numbers is interesting.

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And the only person I really heard, ever talk about is John GSMO who's

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somehow figured out how to do it in whatever control he, he has, where

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it like serializes his, tools and

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he's doing it in G code somehow.

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magic.

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magic.

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Yeah.

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got, we've got this project machining lockers, and each door is gonna have a

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unique number on it cuz they're lockers.

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And it just occurred to me last night that we shouldn't be modeling

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these locker banks with numbers, one to 80 on them infusion.

Speaker:

We should just make single dedicated setup file.

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Cuz we get machine the doors from the back anyway with the hinge cups and stuff.

Speaker:

So then John will be putting them back on the machine one at a time to

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quickly engrave a number in the front.

Speaker:

So my brainwave was like, cool.

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We just need a single setup file to do that double sided operation.

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And within that, you've just got a text box that you can quickly edit

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the text, repost the code, edit the text, repost the code basically, as

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you're standing there by the machine.

Speaker:

But I was just thinking about, yeah, he's wondering curiosity, whether

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you've ever come across any way to either using parameters infusion or

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sort of at the G code level to count up.

Speaker:

Closest I got was grasshopper labeling things in modeling model making in school.

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And it would like bind a piece of text curve to the part.

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And when it got nested, it would be with it.

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And then you could engrave that or cut it.

Speaker:

But I don't think that's a very easy problem to solve, but, but

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I also haven't tried to, so I'm sure somebody's figured it out.

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And I'm grant Grims might tell you how he did it.

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I don't, it's probably very specific to his machines though.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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grass up is great at stuff like that.

Speaker:

I wanted to be able to like we talked about this, we had somebody on staff

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that did a little bit of program.

Speaker:

Like not cam programmings did that too, but it was more like computer programming.

Speaker:

And we had talked about ways to make like, yeah, to generate little G code

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files for the router specifically of like, let's cut a rectangle or like

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it was, you know, kind of like a dropdown creator of like type in sizes.

Speaker:

And you could cut out a drag knife, a box, you know, like without needing

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to set up cam because that was such a messy process for that specific thing.

Speaker:

And honestly, that's just one of the things that fusion

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sucks at is it's not fast.

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Like it's fast.

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If you wanna go from design to manufacturing with a

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file, that's pretty quick.

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But like, if you just wanna like quickly dump out a file, I

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would probably choose like V car.

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Cause it's like way faster.

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yeah, I I've, I feel like that at points too.

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And then I sort of catch myself thinking, I haven't done the hours

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infusion that I've done in rhino

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Yeah.

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and, you know, I haven't bothered to set up a good that workflow infusion ever.

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And yet every time I reinstall rhino, I spend an hour carefully

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setting up all these shortcuts and mouse mapping and stuff, just

Speaker:

so I can work really effectively.

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I think.

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I think fusion can, yes.

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On surface value, it is slower,

Speaker:

but I think it can be pretty quick if you set up good systems,

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

if files would open in a timely manner, that irritates me.

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Oh my God.

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I mean, the program it's basically always open because if I have to open

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it again, seven minutes later yeah.

Speaker:

me of the, how I learned rhino.

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Cuz we did a semester of rhino at school and I hated, I

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thought, what is this nonsense?

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That's not solid works.

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What a

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waste of time.

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are you using before that?

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Yeah, I was, we were all trained in solid works and we're pretty addicted to it.

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So then we're introduced to this like curvy lines and surfaces stuff.

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I'm like, this is nonsense.

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I then got a job.

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But after school.

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Working for a sculptor who did a lot of inflatable sculptures he had rhino.

Speaker:

And so I got this job and had to work in rhino cuz that was his native system for

Speaker:

what he'd dabbled in before and sort of that's where I got good at it, but like

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it's fantastic for making big inflatable sculptures with parts that have to be

Speaker:

unwrapped and rolled out and cut on a plotter and then glued back together.

Speaker:

Again, they all have to be labeled and like fantastic for doing

Speaker:

UN unreal is so cool.

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Like take a surface and flatten it out.

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Yeah.

Speaker:

It's, it's definitely like a, maker's I just say the Swiss army knife,

Speaker:

like there's so many ways you can use it that it's like, if somebody's

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thought of a way to do something,

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Mm.

Speaker:

you know, in 3d CAD of some sort, you can probably do it in rhino.

Speaker:

Like , somebody's done it.

Speaker:

You can paste a script in somewhere and it will like do it for you.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Such a deep tool set.

Speaker:

Laura's been doing some um, she's putting in some proposals for some

Speaker:

new public artworks at the moment.

Speaker:

And so she's been trying to animate, it's another sort of L E D fiber optic concept.

Speaker:

And she's been trying to like animate within rhino, these sort of point clouds

Speaker:

of a possum, walking through a space, but like all animated in point clouds.

Speaker:

And like we've, we've spent a few evenings on the couch, both in rhino,

Speaker:

trying to like muck around, to work out the best workflow to make these simple

Speaker:

sort of key frame animations, go fun.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

That's wow.

Speaker:

Fusion,

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fusion,

Speaker:

fusion.

Speaker:

kind of a endless problem that never

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goes away.

Speaker:

That's a good question.

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How do you fix messy fusion models?

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I don't.

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I was gonna say that

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and start

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I don't

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I really, yeah, no, I really don't.

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Yeah, kinda do the same.

Speaker:

like in particular, this model of this fork came from somebody

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modeled it and it was pretty rough.

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And then we

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quickly, I kind of like adapted it when we were making the first set

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of I'm pointing to the tool fork on

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yeah.

Speaker:

ATC for the router.

Speaker:

And I adapted it for this version, which is basically like subtracting

Speaker:

and making small modifications.

Speaker:

Bit of cheeky, direct modeling.

Speaker:

and now I'm trying to go back and model.

Speaker:

Tweak it just a little bit more.

Speaker:

And I, at this place of like, I either change it now or it's forever

Speaker:

a disaster and I'm trying to think of like, what's the fastest way to like,

Speaker:

take a part that it's not like super complicated, but it's got like, you

Speaker:

know, curvy services that swept.

Speaker:

And like some of it's parametric, like this stuff in the back is parametric,

Speaker:

but none of the front is but the first, the only thing I can think of is to

Speaker:

potentially this sun's kind of crazy, but like insert it into a new file and

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kind of like trace it, but do it Pally,

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Trace it.

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But not project off it,

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not project off of it.

Speaker:

Yeah, no.

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Yeah.

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I would like draw with it one of the stupid problems of fusion is

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you can't have two windows open.

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So like.

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I can't measure stuff off of one onto the other, I guess I

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could a rhino open with it as a

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can't you just measure or if it was me and I can't quite tell how complex

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that part is, but I would measure all the features and write it as a

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list of parameters in a clean file.

Speaker:

So every feature is just a parameter in the list

Speaker:

Yeah.

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model and remodel it.

Speaker:

But

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It was gonna definitely pull some use the export import CSV file thing

Speaker:

there's a really nice little application add in called parameter IO, I think.

Speaker:

And it just lets you basically dump out CSV files of your parameters and then you

Speaker:

can import 'em back into another file.

Speaker:

Not really.

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That's

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cool.

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I have to check that.

Speaker:

Might save some time setting up the same parameters over and over again.

Speaker:

yes.

Speaker:

Cool.

Speaker:

You just gave me, I don't know why I've never done this before.

Speaker:

God that's really stupid.

Speaker:

I have like a template rhino file.

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That's like on our website for people to like upload files to us.

Speaker:

So the layers are there and stuff, but then I was just thinking like, why the

Speaker:

hell have I never done that for fusion?

Speaker:

Like start with a file.

Speaker:

That's like, I don't know what you'd say, like plywood design or something.

Speaker:

And so it has like length with thickness

Speaker:

data rabbit, and they're all there.

Speaker:

And you can change 'em if you want to.

Speaker:

Why haven't I done that?

Speaker:

I'd save a minute each time, but kind that, that up so much.

Speaker:

I did that and I find fusions file management.

Speaker:

So clunky that I don't bother opening the template folder to

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go and find that file every time

Speaker:

again.

Speaker:

It's just about the systems I've built and being a bit sloppy.

Speaker:

Um, but

Speaker:

And the search is like basically useless.

Speaker:

useless.

Speaker:

So don't get me started.

Speaker:

I love the next one.

Speaker:

I'm not gonna talk you out of buying a a pear palette.

Speaker:

you're not gonna

Speaker:

No way.

Speaker:

come

Speaker:

on.

Speaker:

Be my accountability, buddy.

Speaker:

I want one of this and I don't even have a machine to put it on.

Speaker:

well, you probably could put it on your router.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

I don't know.

Speaker:

It's definitely, I mean, it's like one of those weird things where

Speaker:

like, it's like how I learned fusion was I was watching Saunders videos

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before I needed to use fusion.

Speaker:

So then I was like, oh, I could design in that.

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And then, oh, I have a CNC.

Speaker:

Now I could use this fusion for that.

Speaker:

And I was like, I was learning these things before I needed them.

Speaker:

And so then I've been watching these, companies, Saunders and

Speaker:

Grims Mo and Pearson, and like those pallet changers look cool.

Speaker:

I don't needed that.

Speaker:

And now it's like, well kind of want one of those, cuz I have

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the right tools for it now.

Speaker:

And then they're doing a sale currently for, they didn't go to IMTS.

Speaker:

And so instead they're doing 15% off.

Speaker:

I'm sure by the time this is out, the sale will be over.

Speaker:

But I put the link in there in case you're interested in the code.

Speaker:

Oh, it's it's such a nice website.

Speaker:

are you like, you're gonna get one now I have to get a

Speaker:

pallet system for the router.

Speaker:

Have you come across those videos on TikTok of that?

Speaker:

Irish actress reacting to the, the wood chopping guy.

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

I just felt like her as I opened the Pro Pallet system, I just kind of melted

Speaker:

and wanted to scream into my pillow.

Speaker:

oh God.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

it's

Speaker:

Just so

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delicious.

Speaker:

clean.

Speaker:

The only criticism I have is I don't like that.

Speaker:

It's two separate sites that their like, marketing is separate from there and

Speaker:

you can barely tell, but it's like the navigation changes and stuff like that.

Speaker:

And I'm going through the same problem of like, I'm gonna

Speaker:

combine my, all my websites back again, once I move the Shopify.

Speaker:

But how do you make it, not this disaster of like two different navigations

Speaker:

and not that I think theirs is, but.

Speaker:

Do you know what system Pearson's website's built?

Speaker:

I don't, but there's a website called built with.com and

Speaker:

you put in the URL and it

Speaker:

creates an error I wanna say it was like magenta.

Speaker:

Cause I tend to look at this stuff.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah, the website's great.

Speaker:

I mean, all of their, like it's like whoever he is hired or outsources video

Speaker:

content making too is like very good.

Speaker:

On point.

Speaker:

All right.

Speaker:

That's enough swinging over Pearson.

Speaker:

So you are definitely getting one of those good check.

Speaker:

Thanks for talking me out of it.

Speaker:

No, there's so freaking sweet.

Speaker:

Like, it's kind of a lusty tool thing, but I mean, I had considered it, but the

Speaker:

price seemed, it still is a, you know, it's a lot when you don't need it, need,

Speaker:

need it, you know, for like efficiency.

Speaker:

I'm not doing that much, but I mean, I'm designing pallets that don't go on that

Speaker:

currently go on a faster change system.

Speaker:

So it's.

Speaker:

Is that just a stupid I'm wasting my time and, and effort there.

Speaker:

So I emailed them today and asked a couple questions, cuz like, basically I wanna,

Speaker:

I wanna put a pallet on this larger than what they re or what they sell already.

Speaker:

And I was just curious whether or not that's just a terrible idea.

Speaker:

But they're pretty great.

Speaker:

Pretty fast it's so, so genius to So genius the way that like

Speaker:

you pull it up and it uses air pressure to like create a vacuum

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Super cool.

Speaker:

speaking of websites

Speaker:

it's

Speaker:

WordPress

Speaker:

by the

Speaker:

way.

Speaker:

Bit.

Speaker:

eh, yeah.

Speaker:

More like sales and just general business strategy of.

Speaker:

I've probably said a few times that we've just, I've been rethinking all

Speaker:

of my choices about pricing and like strategy, where I feel like when, I

Speaker:

mean, as of yesterday I had this thought of like, when I started Portland CNC

Speaker:

in 2017, there was like very little competition for the odd jobs of

Speaker:

like the harder CNC routing things.

Speaker:

And so it was kind of easygoing to, to win jobs.

Speaker:

And maybe my prices were lower turnaround times were maybe faster material

Speaker:

was the, you know, optimal price.

Speaker:

So there's all these things kind of going well, maybe for everybody,

Speaker:

but we just had that one niche.

Speaker:

And for whatever reason, it's like very, very low like

Speaker:

inquiries for the last few months.

Speaker:

Part of that, you know, I've raised rates because of.

Speaker:

But I think, you know, over the years, like we've gotten better at certain

Speaker:

things and our value is there, you know, in a lot of regard, but then also like

Speaker:

in the last six months I raised the rates because like inflation was outta

Speaker:

control and everything was costing more.

Speaker:

But then, you know, in the last few weeks I've just been like, man, I don't know.

Speaker:

I think I gotta do something here because we're just not winning jobs for cost

Speaker:

reasons or, you know, half of that is sometimes just the material is also crazy

Speaker:

expensive and T altogether, it makes it either non-competitive potentially

Speaker:

with other people or altogether, it's just not a good price for the

Speaker:

customer to continue their project.

Speaker:

So, yeah, just second, guessing everything.

Speaker:

My choices are the fast, I guess.

Speaker:

Yeah, totally.

Speaker:

I mean, when you go to your website, it's very evident that you do contract C and C.

Speaker:

But your, I remember like when we started recording this and some of

Speaker:

the people on my team were like, who's Justin, what does Justin do?

Speaker:

And like, it sort of became apparent that they might have only seen you on Instagram

Speaker:

or they were just looking you up on Instagram for the first time and I think

Speaker:

the, the way you present the brand on.

Speaker:

Instagram is quite, you know, playful and it's same to me.

Speaker:

It's like, whatever you are interested in at the moment, typically, yes.

Speaker:

You've done a push with your product more recently, but like prior to that

Speaker:

was kind of a bit more sort of ad hoc and just whatever you were sort of interested

Speaker:

in at the time.

Speaker:

And you've got that great educational sort of YouTube purpose as well.

Speaker:

So I think there's maybe it's about what you put out there too,

Speaker:

in terms of what you get back.

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker:

there wasn't a sense from those people on my team who were discovering for

Speaker:

the first time that there was no clarity, I suppose, of like what service

Speaker:

I see.

Speaker:

From that Instagram face, at least, you know,

Speaker:

Oh

Speaker:

different on your website, but yeah.

Speaker:

In terms of what you're putting out on Instagram at the time,

Speaker:

does that make sense?

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

no, for

Speaker:

sure.

Speaker:

I guess I've so my history of starting Portland CNC through maybe today,

Speaker:

which it's definitely grown and changed via where we get inquiries from, but

Speaker:

it's almost, I mean, for the longest time, it's like 90% from Google.

Speaker:

Like people finding

Speaker:

a search and then, you know, over time, let's say Instagram has grown and maybe

Speaker:

a little bit of YouTube and we'll get a few people from those sources, but.

Speaker:

Yeah, I could definitely, I mean, I've definitely been talking mostly

Speaker:

about like dust boots and things that we're trying to obviously promote

Speaker:

or talk about that seem important, but I guess maybe this is wrong.

Speaker:

Maybe I should think about it differently, but I don't think of

Speaker:

Instagram as a place where we're gonna grow a local business from, I guess.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

do you feel that differently?

Speaker:

Yeah, I think I feel differently about that.

Speaker:

I think I've primed it very anecdotally, very effective

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker:

Interesting.

Speaker:

local leads.

Speaker:

For, for both of work, like retail and you know

Speaker:

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker:

I think cuz it, it taps.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Whether they're direct leads or whether it's sort of that word of

Speaker:

mouth of like, oh, who do I know?

Speaker:

Who could do something like that?

Speaker:

Oh yeah.

Speaker:

I've seen that guy on Instagram.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

that makes stuff or has those machines, why don't you talk to them?

Speaker:

So it's not necessarily that the lead is coming because they've seen a video

Speaker:

it's like, you know, word of mouth is so powerful,

Speaker:

but

Speaker:

definitely.

Speaker:

I think.

Speaker:

I think Instagram definitely taps into that too.

Speaker:

kind of a weird complaint in that.

Speaker:

I definitely intentionally moved away from doing a lot of job

Speaker:

shop work for so many months.

Speaker:

And so that there's some of that, like, let's say regret, or I don't even know

Speaker:

if it's regret, just second guessing of like how stupid was that, you know, to

Speaker:

go with this idea of making products As our primary effort for a while, which

Speaker:

has turned into like, I'm still stoked.

Speaker:

I think there's a, huge potential still with different products we're

Speaker:

working on, but it also is just really tough to when you don't sell as much

Speaker:

as you used to make in job shop work.

Speaker:

It's a rough transition.

Speaker:

So still in that phase, it's definitely turning, we sold, I feel like now that

Speaker:

the dust boots are out there, they're through most, probably your videos, as

Speaker:

well as other people, you know, seeing it and seeing that it's available now,

Speaker:

or it's picking up, I think in terms of sales and like it's, people are

Speaker:

curious to try it with other types of machines too, which is interesting.

Speaker:

We've had a multicam in the states here, somebody bought one, an, a X,

Speaker:

Y, Z bunch of people with Lagunas really wanna try it, but I'm pretty

Speaker:

convinced it probably wouldn't work just based on the way their ATC works.

Speaker:

But anyway,

Speaker:

Is anyone taking you up on the test fit

Speaker:

uh, it's kind of like people have done it without choosing

Speaker:

the test fit guarantee button.

Speaker:

They're like, it's not compatible, but I'm pretty sure it'll work.

Speaker:

And I'm like, sometimes I'll follow up.

Speaker:

Like, Hey, I wanna make sure that, you know, just basically

Speaker:

reaching out, like, I'm curious how you think this is gonna work.

Speaker:

And if it does, I'd love to know about it.

Speaker:

So we can like confirm it for other people.

Speaker:

And,

Speaker:

um, so yeah, it's interesting for sure.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Following ups, a powerful thing,

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

neither of us are doing the kind of volume where it's not impossible to

Speaker:

follow up with every single customer.

Speaker:

So you can get, so much out of that, both in terms of ongoing

Speaker:

sort of support from that customer.

Speaker:

But also just that simple thing of like, direct feedback.

Speaker:

How did you go?

Speaker:

What were the instructions like?

Speaker:

Could you follow the instructions?

Speaker:

Like,

Speaker:

Do you do any type of like post, other than like requesting reviews or something?

Speaker:

Do you do any type of post, either post job or post product delivery,

Speaker:

like feedback request or something?

Speaker:

We don't have anything set up for product sales at the moment.

Speaker:

we've kind of talked about it a lot and we don't know the best.

Speaker:

We're not comfortable in terms of the best way to push that out.

Speaker:

We don't want something that's sort of pushy, like leave us a review.

Speaker:

Now that you've got your thing, we want it to be sort of more helpful than that.

Speaker:

And we haven't come up with the right recipe, but in terms of

Speaker:

custom work, we do a post job, follow up with every single custom

Speaker:

job.

Speaker:

Wow.

Speaker:

And it's just sub five minute call of like, how did you go?

Speaker:

You're happy with everything, you know, and often with custom jobs that

Speaker:

kind of just happens organically.

Speaker:

Hmm

Speaker:

But we do try and force ourselves to follow up on everyone and just

Speaker:

be like, did it arrive as expected?

Speaker:

Did it go together?

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

Like be happy with it.

Speaker:

do you mean custom product design or custom?

Speaker:

Like you just make parts for them off of like a file they provide.

Speaker:

We do very little of that sort of work.

Speaker:

But anything that's quoted

Speaker:

is

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

see.

Speaker:

I see.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So this, yeah.

Speaker:

If it's not a direct sale on Shopify, then it's some sort of custom quote, whether

Speaker:

that's custom product or CNC, cap parts or

Speaker:

Mm-hmm

Speaker:

join or whatever.

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

I I just happened to, I was kind of looking back as you were talking about my

Speaker:

Instagram and I was like, just staring at it as you were talking a little bit there.

Speaker:

And I was like, what do you mean this isn't obvious what we do.

Speaker:

no, but that's yeah, I'm not saying it should post more contract scenes.

Speaker:

oh, that baby pants image.

Speaker:

It's fantastic.

Speaker:

No, for the record, I think it's fantastic that you're focusing on product.

Speaker:

but it's yeah, it's hard to know where to put your energy too.

Speaker:

It's like, it's good to have that balance of work and

Speaker:

hard to know how far down the rabbit hole you should push.

Speaker:

mm-hmm well, I mean, the very, very like simple, I don't know if I've talked

Speaker:

about this kind of very publicly, but the very simple comparison that's easy.

Speaker:

And maybe a lot of people that listen to this have similar business

Speaker:

scenarios is if we do a $500 custom job, as you say, like job shop job,

Speaker:

like everything has to go, right.

Speaker:

Typically for us to make profit on that because of overhead, because of the

Speaker:

time it takes to set that job up and communicated and all those things, the

Speaker:

overhead, just five hundred's the minimum we really do because of those reasons.

Speaker:

And if we sell a dust booth, that's $500, like that amount of time has already

Speaker:

been it's now being amortized, right?

Speaker:

All that design effort, all that stuff is amortized into.

Speaker:

Now we just theoretically keep.

Speaker:

Making the profit, rather than the profit, you know, having

Speaker:

to be constructed every time.

Speaker:

The labor that is there's assembly obviously, but it's more fixed.

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Everything's fixed and unless something goes drastically

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wrong, it's just so much more.

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It's like every time we sell one, it feels like I just did a $500 job shop

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job, but it took me five seconds.

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Exactly.

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Yeah, yeah,

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It's just so nice as an experience and feels like you're

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doing the right thing anyway.

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Oh, absolutely.

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And that's, yeah.

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That's why we're, we've been chasing that product percentage for years.

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Like we've, it's always been the smaller fraction of our work and

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we've for years and years, we've been trying to it the majority

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Yeah.

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failing.

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And, and part of the reason we're failing is cuz we continue to hang on

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to the old safety net of custom work.

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we've had a, an inbox that's been overflowing with inquiries the beginning.

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So it's very hard to like cut off that, that safety net and say right.

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Product.

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It is let's go.

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Yeah.

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I . I know you're

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Yeah.

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well, we should probably wrap things

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up, but my quicker recommendation is that article in the prepared this week, which

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features a, a lovely photo of your work.

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I haven't read it yet, but they

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contacted us.

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It's about Baltic Birch.

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Which I'm interested to read, but they contacted us about using some photo of

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Alch and I sent 'em a few and they picked one and very nice of them to use it.

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Yeah.

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Are you in the prepared slack channel?

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No.

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I know people that I actually don't read it religiously.

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It'll come up every once in a while read something.

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But I know a lot of people really like it.

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Hm.

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Mm-hmm and I suppose my recommendation is from my friend, Kyle it's for like

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a book club, but with links not a read, because I don't read very much is my

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friend Kyle sent this to me, another friend I just subtitled it enough.

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This guy, Kevin Kavanaugh did a TEDx Portland talk.

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It was like 2018.

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It's quite a while ago.

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It was just a good conversation of his experience with losing a lot during the

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recession and how, how he came back from it and how he changed his business and to

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make things more equitable and help people through daily efforts of his work, He's

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trying to do it more as like a every day.

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We do good things kind of effort, I think is maybe I would summarize

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Okay, cool.

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I'll check it out.

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just pretty

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sounds on topic.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It does sound like something you'd like, we both, like, there's never enough CNCS.

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Never.

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Okay.

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Till next time

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You okay.

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I said next time

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No.

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And I said, are you okay?

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Yeah.

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Is this a trick

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Yeah.

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I was very stressed out earlier in the week, but then we pushed

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back our, home cabinet scenario.

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We were like rushing to finish our cabinet install so that they could

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come and measure for countertops.

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And then we realized after Monday that we were nowhere close to it being ready.

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And so I'm much less stressed out now.

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now it's just normal stress.

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man.

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Did the crickets button where the hell's the crickets.

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It's not crickets.

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That's all I got or, this is how you end a show.

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Right?

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Just mashing buttons, mashing buttons until it stops.

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Okay.

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I don't know how to stop this.

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Bye.

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Good chat.

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Just get all those sound bites.

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Sweet.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Parts Department
Parts Department
Justin Brouillette (Portland CNC) and Jem Freeman (Like Butter) discuss CNC machines, their product design and manufacturing businesses, and every kind of tool that they fancy.

Listen for free

About your hosts

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Jem Freeman

Co-founder and director of Like Butter, a CNC focussed timber design and manufacturing business in their purpose-built solar-powered workshop. Castlemaine, VIC, Australia.
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Justin Brouillette

Founder of Portland CNC & Nack