Episode 16

16 - Justin Confesses

Justin (and Jem) make a big confession. They also realize sales by business owner is a tool for control. The YCM makes a big aluminum part and Nack might attend a Makers Market that ignites from the +100ºF heat in Portland.

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DISCUSSED:

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Please note: Show notes contains affiliate links.

  • Nack Maker Fair Prep
  • Continued Benefits from Business Coaching
  • Jem handing off HR to Sarah
  • Mill setups
  • Custom Tools are a great deal
  • Justin makes a Confession
  • Jem makes a Confession
  • Penta Machine Company
  • Hiring for Sales - Chicken and Egg
  • Owner Control by owning sales
  • We're "special" is maybe more a feeling than
  • We're also stifling our potential (Justin is)
  • Commissions? - Bad for team moral?


  • Qualify Harder
  • Follow Ups - By Phone is Huge Conversion Boost (LB)
  • Video Recording to go with Quote



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Show Info


HOSTS

Jem Freeman

Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia

Like Butter | Instagram | More Links


Justin Brouillette

Portland, Oregon, USA

PDX CNC | Instagram | More Links

Transcript
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the

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sure.

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opening air table.

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It's like real warm here yesterday.

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think it over 90 degrees in the shop itself.

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So it's like, what do we got?

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That's 32 degrees in down under units.

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That is pretty warm.

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Anything 30 is

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Yeah.

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Same here.

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It's supposed to be have part of our crazy this week is we have like a maker's

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fair market thing on the weekend, which is gonna be fun, but it's always just

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a lot of stress getting everything ready, and it's supposed to be 101

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that day, and we're gonna be outside the entire day under like a tent.

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So I'm trying figure out how survive that without having

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Ricky quit on me or something.

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Wow.

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I'm just kind of, I don't I'm trying to debate whether anybody's gonna come.

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we're pretty fair.

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Whether people in the Northwest, I don't know,

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to and

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mix of will there

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mostly more handmade things.

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We're kind of maybe on the edge of acceptable, I suppose, since we use.

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CNCS to make much of our stuff, but I mean, we'll have the kn wall there.

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like I mentioned that last time, like trying to get that out there

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so that hopefully be able to sell it and have people like play with

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it a little bit more hands on than prior we did like, Hey, look at it.

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And just someday this will be available now.

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It's my challenge is to like actually have prices and be able have people,

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hopefully if we can like work out all the kinks of figuring that out,

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like actually basically pre-order it for like local delivery or pick up.

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That's my hope.

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So that's exciting.

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Awesome.

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And you have you done this fair before?

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yeah, so we did it's happens at different times of the year.

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So we did one that was like a winter market version, but it was

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out in like our, one of our lumber.

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Suppliers warehouse cause it was COVID So it was like, nobody

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really wanted inside anywhere.

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So that was where we showed.

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I think I put a time lapse of putting together the kn wall last time.

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And that was, that was that one.

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We ended up finding out that people thought that the ChemX rest were like

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actually a product rather than like me just thinking like, Hey, maybe somebody

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will like this so that was kind of nice.

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We had a bunch of those,

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Okay

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products

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when we used to do markety things, I used to very much enjoy the engagement with

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yeah.

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like conversations.

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Having to sort of explain your products in person someone

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who's never seen them before.

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Yes.

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that stuff I found really valuable.

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I found them utterly useless from a sales perspective, though, rule

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thinking.

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I just lost a whole day, or more depending on, you know, how much prep went into it.

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of

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was fun and had some good conversations, but whatever, and it was always really

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hard to tell what the re the overflow return was of how many of those

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people then reengaged with the bus

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Mm-hmm

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later date or the, the weeks after that?

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did you find, if I hear what you're saying, did you, you never like

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turned a profit on the, the event and all the things leading up?

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Yeah, that's what I always feel like happens.

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Like it's kind of we were walking around like a vintage flea markety

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thing when we were on vacation, Hey, Ricky's gonna make a, a show.

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Hey, doing the podcast.

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It's alright.

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That's Ricky he was out running Sam errs and I said to my wife, I was do you,

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know, what's, what's the situation here is none of these people that sell stuff

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in these little booths make any money.

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They just it's like a storage Basically.

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It's like, they're paying to keep their stuff in these places.

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And then house makes, you know, a decent amount of profit every month.

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Cuz all they need to do is sell floor space, like a storage unit,

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which is very popular in America.

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As people put their stuff in storage and I, it just hit me finally.

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I was like, oh yeah, there's no way that each of these little vendors is selling

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enough that they're making a profit.

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Mm.

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Yeah, I think look, yeah, not to be pessimistic, but I think those markets

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were important to us at one point,

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Yeah.

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as we were building the brand and getting our name out there.

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Definitely.

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They were certain, yeah, they were definitely useful.

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I think, from a brand building

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I always find feeling of which we've talked about a lot in the

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last, like the last time we did it.

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And now this time I just, I think about like putting myself in the place of a

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customer walking up and going, like, it's a pretty, you know, pretty big

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ask for somebody to like, maybe they're thinking of I'll, I'll buy a cutting

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board or like some, you know, lip balm or like something more like, I don't

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know, easy to just purchase off the whim.

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And I know it's a big ask for them to go, Hey, what, what do you think

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about a storage system for your house?

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goes on your wall.

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, Yep

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I'm just kind of hoping to get some conversations.

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And one of my goals was to be able to potentially get people's feedback.

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Have them physically play with it and see, like, what would you put on this?

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What a be ideal kind of like capture that?

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stick to

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yeah, exactly.

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And if we happen a couple then sweet.

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Yeah, just get eyeballs on it,

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Yeah.

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get it into the world.

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It's good.

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Yeah.

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how are things going for you?

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You make me miss markets now.

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Hmm.

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Damn you.

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You could, you could start a market of your own,

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the butter market.

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constant Instagram posts with low engagement.

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Yes.

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Lower and lower engagement.

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Every time you post it's fun.

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different vibe.

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Isn't it?

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Oh, tell me about it.

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Amazing.

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I'm good.

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Had a good week.

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Okay.

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Good.

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after recording last week, we had improvement day, just coming

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around really fast at the moment, possibly too fast, too regular.

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There was a bit of chatter last week about like, do we actually

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need to do this every month?

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Or can we do it on a sort of as needs basis?

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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I've been dedicating my workshop improvement

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like

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as kind of a dedicated clean day just to shoot new photos,

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Mm-hmm

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which I really like the rhythm of that.

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So I'd like to stick to a monthly shoot, even if we shift the, the

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lean day out a little bit, but had a good shoot last week, new products.

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no You've been pumping out lot of photos for

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I think I I away from those days with about six or 700

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shots, most of which are rubish.

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And then I slowly pick through them over the following weeks and

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out a handful of decent stuff.

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But it was really, it was good.

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good day in the workshop, getting things further along and improved.

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as a

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It was good.

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changes happening here at we had our, sense would

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haven't been in that long, but

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quite prepared and

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usually working in

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okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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she hung

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A local

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our

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we do repeat very positive.

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And our basically like, guys really well,

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Mm.

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You need to And his push

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Oh,

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guys.

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oh, profit or revenue.

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this.

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Same.

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Same.

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Yeah.

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But it's like, it's gotta be one of those things.

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Any type of coach, right?

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It's like your basketball or soccer coach where they're never gonna be happy.

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if they were, you would probably be like, all right, you're not a very good coach.

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We're done with you.

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Yeah, yeah,

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new therapist.

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We've done everything.

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having

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just

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you, that participates, right?

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No,

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Oh, Sarah.

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Sorry.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I'm very jealous of that.

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I gotta find something like that here.

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Cuz I feel that just chatting with a couple of friends, about business things

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and I just constantly have that feeling of like, I need what you've described.

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Like somebody to, I have another one of my friends was like, they literally

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tell me like, don't worry about this, you know, situation or that situation

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like keep moving forwards with this.

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Ricky's great to chat with, but you know, he.

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Doesn't sit around and think about the things I do all day.

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And so it's just somebody to help focus those thoughts a little

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bit more with too many ideas.

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Usually the problem,

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I highly recommend

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Yeah.

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talking about it and do it

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yeah, that, that progress

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I just around who does

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had quite a lot of overlap, which can be seen as inefficient in

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terms of who's responsible for what so in what is a fairly big

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move I've I've handed HR to Sarah.

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our workshop

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that's which feels massive.

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Like.

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Not that it's not that it's a great deal of time in my but

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yeah.

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Does that include,

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days to

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kind of thing.

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Not just Yeah,

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really good having in that role, cuz she'll actually have even just

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little things like actually calling the people back who email us, looking

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for work like, tend to sit in the

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Yeah.

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Sam.

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no

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Yeah, for sure.

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great.

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And

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out not to go back the makers fair get stressed out.

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I wanna do really want to pay off know, and financial be ideal, like

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some of the small goals have then I always feel like I'm just like, not

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for it as it gets closer and closer.

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So that's how in my mind, and I'm doing the other thing that's newish for my

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normal I'm making a rather large part for.

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we

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that work for out of aluminum.

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That is, and,

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coach was

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have basically

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you too

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fixturing on the mill.

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And I think, honestly, Andy those on, dialed them in.

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don't know that I've dialed the device in yet.

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I, I know the process, I just So I have take them off and then

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put one back on to finish it.

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so I'm like have, I sure has to come off.

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And I like tried to find a way to put both vices on to hold the part, but I bought

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one Kurt vice one came with the machine.

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I thought they were close enough And they actually are just different generations.

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And so they don't align

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What am what

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Y axis.

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They're like a little bit off.

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you can't use them in, in tandem unless you're using only

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one face, I need to move 'em.

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Cause it's so big.

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been like,

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at

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I I go out there and stare at for a while and I'm like, Hmm, now that won't work.

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And then I like move the jaw faces in the new position, thought that'll work.

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And then I, like, I went out there and put the piece in there and it

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was like, oh, it doesn't align.

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And just had to like work backwards to figure out to do it and then

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ask some friends, like, can put the metal right on the table?

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Like, is that right?

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And they're like, yeah, I just don't cut the table.

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And I'm like, well, yeah.

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I mean, I get that, get that part.

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Try not to cut my tables.

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I, you know, I enjoy that challenge, it's like when enough of those things hit at

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the same time, you're like, all right.

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One of these challenges has to be resolved soon here and I

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have to finish that part today.

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So deal.

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I don't think.

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You're saying you've never put a, a big bit of car buy

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through your shop saver table.

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Oh, I have, yeah, I'm the only one.

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I believe that's cut the finale table.

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I think I'm surprisingly, I would've expected somebody else to have by now.

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Yeah.

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I think I'm the same.

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I think I'm the culprit the big gouges aluminum bed.

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or we just don't hear about it, but I haven't seen the

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Ricky had a band saw blade.

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We've been keeping the lights off in the shop.

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We have a warm.

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And I was walking by and you had changed the bandsaw blade

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and like brought that back there to, you know, bundle it back up.

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And it was sitting on the table, big thing, 111

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review

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just reflected in a weird way.

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And I thought that there was giant circle, cut it in the finale.

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stopped.

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And I was like, Rick, Ricky, I thought cut into the table.

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It's just a bill.

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And he is like, he started laughing at me.

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Nope, would've told you about that.

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And I was okay, I'm just seeing things now.

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the most expensive

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but I do on interface

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oh

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we've seen that stuff part line the camera, we can just

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good.

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on

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around probe this and then this is the stock

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Yeah.

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It

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it's great deal

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Our friend, Nick, I think it's PKI.

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I've learned a lot machining from him.

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I, he just he'll answer any question I have about Mill's super guy he just got

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a data on and that thing is fantastic

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be

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Yeah, so fast and like the, I think where it's appealing to maybe

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people like too is, is really.

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The touch.

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Screen's great.

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probings great.

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fast, but it has vacuum in too.

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Like they have vacuum plates.

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Those cards are so

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and

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Yeah.

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I've always been intrigued by that, that

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and just

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how it works.

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I was messaging Nick about project I'm doing right now.

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He's like, well, how, when do you need it done by?

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And I was like, oh, like Wednesday.

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And he is like, oh shoot.

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Yeah, I could have it.

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I could make that for you so fast.

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was like, yeah, but I got this machine that like, I need to learn how

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Touse really well, I know your Tron could do it in like three seconds.

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Not even need a second fixture, but yeah.

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I think it's good.

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I feel I did, unfortunately, just break a tool right before this.

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I don't know.

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I think I must have had a, it too deep.

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I was making a little fixture for the second op, but it is very

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satisfying when you get something made on it still it's like.

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We it's.

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I think it's because it's so common that the router isn't as satisfying,

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but to do, but it's like something about cutting metal into very precise

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shapes it seems hard, you know,

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Yeah.

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an interesting go with on the mill?

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Like, where to

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Nick was super helpful.

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Once again, he, he sent me his tool list cause I was, I had the same question

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I asked like three or four people.

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I was like, where would you buy tools from?

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Cause I dunno if you have problem there, but there's this like

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silly thing that still exists where you have to like buy from.

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a brand will exist and then you can't buy from them directly.

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You have to buy from somebody, some dealer.

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And I was like, wait, there are some brands that let you just buy direct.

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So I kind of went that way.

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It was like, I use some decent tool stuff.

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And then we have a local tooling vendor that I have started to lean

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on more and more, which is great.

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It's like, Hey guy, that I talk to there, like uh, I'm gonna cut

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this and I need this much cut.

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And he's like, all right, here's two tools to choose from.

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And I'm like, yes, it's so easy.

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leaning on vendors

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So good.

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relationship going.

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you just got of tooling reps now that he talks to regularly been

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getting more custom tools made, cuz they're not that expensive.

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Yeah.

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need a specific profile or like the thread mill that we use

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Yep.

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Here and it's quite

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It's

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cuz I literally couldn't find an Australian tool vendor sold a we've

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since I don't know if they've arrived yet, we've commissioned custom

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ones from an Australian vendor.

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You found, you found.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Ooh,

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when it comes to

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see.

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good work.

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Hopefully they work,

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one custom tool for our iMac basis and it's not like complicated,

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but it's few hundred bucks cuz we only have one in one it's just

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solid three quarter inch carbide.

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That's like five or six inches long.

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So it's mostly, feels like you're just paying for the carbide in that situation.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Just make some buttery smooth compared to a bunch of step downs.

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does that mean you are just finishing that

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Yeah, it's Uhhuh, it's like a giant three quarter inch rougher.

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well, I mean that the collection of tools used for that op those

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set of operations tool sets

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love

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But it meant going

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data in terms

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like three

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like

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a thousand dollars

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and it's a lot of them, we reuse those tools all except for the

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custom tool, like all of 'em.

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We used that roughing tool all the time.

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That was like $300.

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But

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yeah,

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go a long even if don't

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Hmm

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a three

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I to a cart like five or six delivered

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we have a contractor machine,

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Oh,

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that

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yeah.

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timber

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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fronts to do

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Does a good job.

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That that's been shocking on that note for me.

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How long tools last in aluminum, particularly like

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it, I would've never guessed.

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They last this long and I've been using a rougher.

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It's like it's a three, eight inch rougher, three flu.

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I think I'm on first or second one since I got the machine and

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it's just, it just keeps going.

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Like, I look at it every once in a while I like expect it to be

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chipped like a compression cutter or something and like, it's fine.

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okay, just keep going.

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yep.

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Awesome.

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I guess cutting play would probably generate a lot more

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heat heat than a cool and fed

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I guess

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meal, right?

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Yeah.

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quandary.

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I don't know.

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I mean, obviously you can, you can really like

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How do you tool selection

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are formed, I like in aluminum,

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clue

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at some point the wood breaks and turns into a dust or like something else.

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So that may, may be true.

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Yeah.

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I remember my sort of broke my brain a little bit in a good way when started

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using fusion, which was around the same time that I started kind of really

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understanding like feed per tooth and chip load and stuff like that.

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And I remember like some aluminum and pulling a chip off the table and going,

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oh, if I measure the thickness of that chip, it should kind of compute to the

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I

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Oh, wow.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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availability quite

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amazing

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crazy.

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You say that I've never thought of it that way, but that's a great learning

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to like train somebody with like, cuz I that inch per tooth or whatever you

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call it feed per tooth is a confusing

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is

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with somebody learning.

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I remember going through

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decent

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That's a great, yeah, should try

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Yeah.

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It's hard to do with plywood,

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of

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but like

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the

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Let me go You can't measure.

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Yeah, can't.

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There's no more.

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We also compact your for you?

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Oh cool.

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It's got it like a briquette maker in line.

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single point

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going too far with the, the baby part of that.

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I to

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for you.

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Uh, So my

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confession, is after,

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14 months of working on CAD files to make my own cabinets

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for our kitchen renovation.

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My wife, my wife convinced me to buy Ikea cabinets.

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So we have it.

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It's so shockingly cheap, like I know particle board melamine.

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It's not heritage quality materials.

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my word, it was like, I think last, like basically this time, last week she

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asked me, like, for real, she's been asking me jokingly for a long time.

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And I kept going like kind of full of like, you know, pride, like, no I'm

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making our cabinets, you know, like I have the machines, I can do it.

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And I've been banging my head against how to make them really dynamically

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in fusion and through a multitude of ways I could straight up, you

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know, have 'em done right now.

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But I was, I kept trying to push it farther and farther, like be able to like

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have different thing, different features.

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And yeah, it was about a, about maybe Wednesday last week.

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And she asked me again, cuz

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look

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we would like done.

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said finally had added it all This is this is the turning point.

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And it was like, Just like less than the material gonna use for

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finished cabinets And I was like, And then she's like, yeah, they could

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deliver it like Tuesday next week.

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And I was what God.

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Okay.

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And I like really had to like sit there and I can't with that.

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You know, like, I wasn't like I thought it was saving us some money

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by doing it ourselves, you know, obviously versus like company cabinets.

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But when it was, I think it ended up being $2,200.

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We don't have a very kitchen, but I'm still gonna make the some bamboo,

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fronts and I'll still make those.

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But yeah, all the boxes with all the hardware, it's

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like $2,200 for our kitchen.

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And that was like less than the material for the boxes that I was gonna buy.

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Yeah.

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What, what material

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yeah, So

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I had some like apple pie because, oh, I did not need it to be

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that, but it was like available last August when I bought it.

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So I gotta resell that too.

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Cause it's been taken up storage space,

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that's the quandary.

Speaker:

I think you've made the right decision for sure.

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Yeah

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I've got a multitude of home projects that are hanging over me at the moment, and

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some of them are cabinet making based.

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But yeah, I did.

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I made, I didn't go to the Ikea.

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low, but I, college university

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Sick burn by Jem.

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process this I start a new list

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Maloon board for all my carcasses that I made last year throughout

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lounge room base cabinets.

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I was just such, such a joy to machine and it's like beautiful

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vacuum hold down and, and edge banded it all contour and installed it.

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And it was great.

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It was good.

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do have to make some of and the right

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should be

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I do have to, I don't know what that system, it's like a, it's almost like

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LA Melo that they use, you know, with the, like twist lock thing that goes

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in, I have to do some customization of a couple like pieces, so I'm gonna try to

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replicate their, whatever their system is.

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But cause I have to cut the top and the bottom to like

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shorten a couple pieces like,

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I you're gonna try and make parts that work

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yeah,

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yeah.

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I don't know how gonna go, that cabinet's

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of applies

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So I was like worst case scenario.

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I remake cabinet, I guess.

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Or buy another?

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I don't know.

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Try it again.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's the nice thing about base cabinets, right?

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You can kind of hack them up and put 'em back together again.

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And then by the time everything's

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Beautiful

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in

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so hidden.

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I I'd say that.

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You know, I really wanted to be completely transparent.

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I really wanted to come out with this video.

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Like I made cabinets with fusion finally, like, cause you, I haven't

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people like accomplish it in a dynamic and like Rob Lockwood doing some cool

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stuff and I kind of copied his idea and we were working on it kind of

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collectively because he's trying to build some stuff for his house too.

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And.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Okay.

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And so I, yeah, it was kind of like a point of pride to

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like, make something out of it.

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And I still, you know, I still may try and do it on a smaller scale, but I

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just kept outta like juice on I, you know, it'd be a weekend and be like,

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oh, I need to work on the cabinets.

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I'd just be like, I do not wanna open infusion right now.

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Like do that all week.

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So it's been really good.

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Like as soon as we decided we sat on the couch Saturday and ordered

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it and I was like, Ugh, I don't have to think about that anymore.

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It's like constant pressure.

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That's gone.

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Yep.

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That's been nice.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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No, Erin kept joking.

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She's like, I'm just gonna go sneak in a request or Ricky and like

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have him make him on the side.

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And I was like, you wouldn't.

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Did you make much of the furniture for your home?

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Like cabinets and things.

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wanna it

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house.

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so

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It's

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yep.

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see new things

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basically fully furnished

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Yeah.

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Makes sense.

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three monthly and I to rebuild my

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Mm-hmm

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oh

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I don't guilty

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to you know it's like

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yeah, no, I love that.

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bankruptcy of task list stuff.

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Yeah.

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work flowing.

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Are you?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I tend to, like this week, I got stressed out by how many things I have to do.

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And it's like the place I dump my thoughts, cuz you

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can reorganize it so easily.

Speaker:

So I have this and then I like Rick never uses it.

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We don't use it for business reasons.

Speaker:

And I like just shared him a link to it as like here, this is what

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I've been like planning with.

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I don't wanna put it in an air table.

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Just look at this, these lists so easy.

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did you like copy everything over or start?

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Totally fresh and like disregard the last?

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I triaged and only copied what I felt was most important, which wasn't

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very much just dumped the rest of it.

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That I haven't deleted anything out Yet another like skeleton archive

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of things that will now collect dust until I come crawling back to

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air table in another three months, having got sick of work flowing

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Mm-hmm

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onwards.

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I think it's just part of my process now.

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It's just quarterly to do reset.

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I've been, I've been doing that early It just, I, my brain hits

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a limit and I'm like, I can't

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Yeah.

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How we do it?

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You talking about machine set before, or?

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No, it was when you're talking about the, the draft angle on

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the iMac basis and custom tool.

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I just had like, quite a sort of visceral response of like, damn I missed machining

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you're gonna have to bring like a little desktop machine into your, whole

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office that you don't get to go out.

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Yeah, you got a little Chipo in there and make some draft angles.

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yeah.

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I just need to be consistent with my R and D time.

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Make sure I get out in that time slot and play on

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sure.

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Yeah.

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the only one Other people have been running production

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parts on it, but I've been the

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Yeah.

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Like

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or making a, is how I take the You

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infusion.

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This is what code in visual

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I I'd

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like modify the code like this and blah, blah, blah.

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So

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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I

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slowly transferring

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yeah.

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That's awesome.

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yeah, I just gotta get like five

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and then be my new play thing.

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Right.

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Mm-hmm yeah, no, that's the, well, the depends on the size of parts.

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I think we talked about that before you can get the, what do they,

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this change their name, pocket.

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NC is now Penta machining, but that's, I supposedly they're gonna

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Penta machining or Penta machines.

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P E NT a.

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Which I'll never remember probably now.

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it it

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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They're supposedly gonna have it.

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This honestly like made, I don't think I buy it.

Speaker:

I just an interesting idea.

Speaker:

I like to like that, they're supposedly gonna have it at IMTS in Chicago in the

Speaker:

fall, which is like two months now away.

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And I've

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debating, debating whether to go cause like the flights go up and

Speaker:

down pretty, pretty cheap, honestly.

Speaker:

And I need nothing really.

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Like, it's just social something.

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Interesting.

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And it's been so long do any of that.

Speaker:

Like you went, right.

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yeah.

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Yeah.

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They're supposed, they're supposedly gonna have one there.

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I'm back in

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Yeah, me too.

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We talked about it a little bit.

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Last time, the chicken and egg sales person hiring scenario, I'm curious, you

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said you were potentially hiring and I'm always thinking, like, I always want to

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be hiring for this, like a, to generate more sales B to take it off my plate.

Speaker:

Like I just want somebody else to do it.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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funny one.

Speaker:

I there's a reason

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the last position.

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Business owners hang onto.

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of air table just

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And yes, it's our intention to hire for this in the coming three to six months.

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But it's, I think a massive challenge, cuz yeah, I dunno legacy sort of process

Speaker:

speaking here, but like feel like, I guess everyone probably feels like their

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process is special and hard to replace.

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Right.

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So there's definitely that going on.

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So, you know, my version of that is I feel like our quoting process

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is so tied into our design process.

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So like

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often designing

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Yeah

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for someone as we quote.

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Ah,

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That someone just doesn't come to us and go, we just like punch in

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numbers and go, oh, it's like, roughly this big, it'll be this much money.

Speaker:

It's like, cool.

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What's your, what's your problem.

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Let's try and solve it together.

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What's your budget.

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Okay, cool.

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Then that probably puts you, limits you to these materials this size thing.

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And like, yeah.

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I feel like design and quoting are very tied together currently.

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Yeah.

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And so I find it hard to imagine how could hire someone for the sales role

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who had doesn't have the same design background or skillset, or, you know

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the

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Yeah.

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Well, there's there's that damning scenario.

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I feel like you hear about often where sales people sold job and the people

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that do the work hate them, you know, and it's exactly what you're describing.

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I think I would, I would like to say I'm proud of the scenario.

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the specialness I feel is that we don't have that disconnect because

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who can sort program it

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I've always believed that there should be.

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like everybody that's working on job is responsible for it.

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not handoff,

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Monday Tuesday basically

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isn't responsible, know, like they're as person that does

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QC, that it gets done right

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Mm-hmm

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I, you I think that a lot of easy to say because I've never had more

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four people to collectively, but, you know, once you get to 50, it's

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probably story, but I still think

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the ability to program

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people to do sales that had worked for a decent amount of time.

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And they, they was mostly like a secondary task for them.

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I still was doing the majority.

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access

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surprised at both of them caught on more than I thought they would,

Speaker:

you know, like I had the same word, special, I'm special feeling of like

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and I wrote down while you were saying, that's like, The owner controls by

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owning sales, because it's so true.

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It's like we can control what comes in that way, as well as like

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profitability and all of the factors.

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I've, I've never not wanted to give it up.

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It's just, it seems really hard to give it up

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Yeah.

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in terms of like replacing all the skillset needed and

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just our history with it.

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Right.

Speaker:

We've been doing it for that process was something we had to start with

Speaker:

by our, by ourselves and learn, and then perfect over so many years.

Speaker:

So.

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I've not perfected it

Speaker:

When you say you've trained people to do sales, do you like front end engagement

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with customers or more like, sort of the back end of like crunching numbers?

Speaker:

both.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Both.

Speaker:

Very minorly.

Speaker:

I mean I wish I would've kind of in, it just didn't seem like it made

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sense, but one person One person was just kind of felt good at really

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liked to talk on the phone and talk to people and like communicate a lot.

Speaker:

And so I was like, Hmm, this seems like it could be a good fit and did

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a lot of just good with numbers.

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So that worked out pretty well.

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Ended up not very long for other reasons.

Speaker:

But then the other person was because they, the pandemic hit and

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couldn't work in the shop anymore.

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So I was like, well, what can you do remotely?

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And I was like, how about some sales?

Speaker:

And they were very responsive to that because it was still a job and

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I, in the end it was like, they didn't really like it that much.

Speaker:

And I don't know if they were that about all the farther I've gotten it.

Speaker:

Yeah, I think my

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jumping back Worked As an owner, I am much more likely to take risks when quoting

Speaker:

of like, oh yeah, we can do that.

Speaker:

I dunno how we're gonna do it, but I'll say yes, cuz I know I'm confident

Speaker:

that we can do of problems with

Speaker:

people who have helped me in that role typically are much more conservative.

Speaker:

And that makes sense, cuz they're not the

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to take risks.

Speaker:

it's, it's not their, their gamble.

Speaker:

And so typically they're much slower, makes sense.

Speaker:

Cuz they're being more conservative, more conscientious of like,

Speaker:

have I done all the things?

Speaker:

Have I got all the parts on the sheet?

Speaker:

Go back and check.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Cool.

Speaker:

Got all things like they're they're doing more crosschecking.

Speaker:

Whereas my flow is I suppose, a bit more intuitive and a bit more loose.

Speaker:

Bit, definitely more risk taking of like, yeah.

Speaker:

You know, it's roughly six sheets.

Speaker:

Cool.

Speaker:

Thing

Speaker:

and the

Speaker:

this

Speaker:

and tips

Speaker:

we did work it

Speaker:

all of

Speaker:

Yeah, you figured good for you.

Speaker:

You did good.

Speaker:

but that's something that we've I feel like we've gotten a lot better

Speaker:

of recently as we've improved our sort of hand over process.

Speaker:

So when we win a custom job, say it's, you know, cabinets for lounge or

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bookshelves, custom bookshelves, say if I've sold the project and I've been the

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one engaging with the customer and sort of designing it for them on the fly.

Speaker:

As part of that sales process, I then make a screen capture

Speaker:

video of my sketches in rhino.

Speaker:

And I give that screen capture video to Josh who typically details it infusion

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when Josh finishes detailing it infusion.

Speaker:

He does another video, which details all for production.

Speaker:

So for the machinist for John is machining it and people who

Speaker:

might be working on processing and assembly and stuff like that.

Speaker:

So by doing those handover steps, it kind of makes more

Speaker:

accountable to actually think

Speaker:

the

Speaker:

I'll often pause.

Speaker:

actually articulate,

Speaker:

what that detail is gonna work?

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Who's where's the director.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

or not confident

Speaker:

how find that

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

I I haven't actively looked for somebody I did.

Speaker:

And that was this year, I think at one point.

Speaker:

To that different aspects, like I've never worked in sales, I've never.

Speaker:

Mm.

Speaker:

and known anybody to work, I understand concepts that are popular, but for

Speaker:

example, would you consider a commission

Speaker:

As in, yeah.

Speaker:

I've never worked in sales either.

Speaker:

So I barely know what that even means.

Speaker:

So do you mean commission, like the person who sells the project

Speaker:

gets a cut, like as a reward

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So it's a part of their pay.

Speaker:

So it's incentivized to sell the problem you know, there's a lot that both ways,

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

And I I've thought about stuff like that too, but I guess it's

Speaker:

something I've butted up against is like, But then how do you tie that

Speaker:

into that sort of bigger picture?

Speaker:

Like you were saying before, like wanting to be responsible from from

Speaker:

which

Speaker:

you could sell whatever your to to well, let's sell, really time.

Speaker:

I dunno, team.

Speaker:

know

Speaker:

We could start that where I don't know this popular there, like

Speaker:

yet I

Speaker:

popular here the pandemic where like, when you're checking out restaurant or

Speaker:

something and be like, do you wanna it's like, we all share And it's like, maybe

Speaker:

when our clients check out, they can

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

our staff, on their invoices.

Speaker:

Do you wanna tip your production people

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Incentives and rewards are a super interesting area,

Speaker:

which I dunno much about.

Speaker:

I've always been interested in like the profit sharing concept.

Speaker:

I'd love, I think I've probably mentioned that here before, but like,

Speaker:

I'd love to learn more about that.

Speaker:

And maybe if in down this trend of actually making a profit, which looks

Speaker:

so far, so good then maybe that's something we'll invest, there's always,

Speaker:

there's always the other angle of like pay people well to do a job.

Speaker:

Well, that should be enough.

Speaker:

So I don't know.

Speaker:

answers on that one.

Speaker:

other side hiring

Speaker:

I'll

Speaker:

is I'm confident that I am

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

potential for job shop

Speaker:

Yeah

Speaker:

ways.

Speaker:

It's like, I don't respond quickly enough.

Speaker:

I don't.

Speaker:

I quote.

Speaker:

in the ways that I'm controlling all of the steps, I'm either overly

Speaker:

confident what we can do or the timeline, or I'm just personally

Speaker:

stressed out about the business.

Speaker:

And so then I'm like you know, either quoting or responding or like pushing

Speaker:

jobs off in different ways, because I feel like we're busy, but maybe we're not.

Speaker:

And it's like, as soon as you, I know for a fact, as soon

Speaker:

take, it's just like production.

Speaker:

It's like, I, the person that does the production isn't as worried about

Speaker:

their focus on that thing, they get that done way better than I could.

Speaker:

When I was splitting up my time, ways, it's like, it's gotta you know, in

Speaker:

some, some fashion that their like job to call people and reach out.

Speaker:

And like, I bad at all Proper I like to email people basically.

Speaker:

And then after that I'm like, ah, I don't know.

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

Yeah, that's part of feeling here is that I need to do some time where it's just me

Speaker:

wanted

Speaker:

for sales completely.

Speaker:

make myself more accountable.

Speaker:

Cause there's, there's definitely a it, of

Speaker:

couple days is I've just

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

Whereas I like

Speaker:

might me sort of get of picking up the phone

Speaker:

but

Speaker:

conversion rate numbers

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

like it's kind of where my thinking is that take that whole piece of pie with

Speaker:

take and ideally develop the processes around it to a point where there's enough

Speaker:

structure and sort of clear process there that I can then find someone and go here.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm

Speaker:

so maybe then

Speaker:

with

Speaker:

be so specialized.

Speaker:

It can be more sort of someone who doesn't have, you know, five years of

Speaker:

sales experience and a small business.

Speaker:

It's just someone who's kind of aligned culturally and you can go, cool.

Speaker:

You're a nice fit.

Speaker:

This is how we do it here off you go.

Speaker:

So what I'm curious about come

Speaker:

team

Speaker:

is

Speaker:

commission

Speaker:

me, teach us how to do it.

Speaker:

Well, how for still,

Speaker:

sell sell

Speaker:

there's like maybe things we think we do well,

Speaker:

hard

Speaker:

I'm sure I'm doing things push people away from or I'm just not following up in the

Speaker:

ways they want to, or, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker:

I'm very curious to see, to like hear them work, you know, almost in

Speaker:

a sense how they would tackle clients versus others, or I don't know.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

It's definitely.

Speaker:

If you're, if you're out there and you want a job in this, let us know

Speaker:

lately

Speaker:

standard And when you ideal job being much more thorough about

Speaker:

actually picking up the phone we continue up the phone to follow up.

Speaker:

So qualifying and follow ups have made like a massive

Speaker:

improvement in our conversion rate

Speaker:

And and follow ups are specifically even if they didn't contact that way.

Speaker:

they said, huh?

Speaker:

Air table form comes in, pick up the phone, send a quote email,

Speaker:

pick up the phone a week later

Speaker:

Geez.

Speaker:

and sort of, as long as you sort of control those expectations and say,

Speaker:

as the quote gets emailed out, you say like, I'm gonna call you in a week.

Speaker:

I'm gonna touch base Tuesday.

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker:

set those expectations, then I feel like people are very receptive and.

Speaker:

Never have an issue with you calling them if you've sort of

Speaker:

Do you have an idea of in these success stories of follow up by phone,

Speaker:

whether these are mostly businesses or are they also private parties?

Speaker:

'em

Speaker:

Most of our customers are private parties, so

Speaker:

Oh, really?

Speaker:

both.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

Both.

Speaker:

And the conversations in the follow ups, you know, sometimes yes.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

There's plenty of awkward ones who just like, doesn't go anywhere

Speaker:

like you.

Speaker:

Oh, fine.

Speaker:

but for the most part, no, there's nothing that bad, nothing like that.

Speaker:

but the conversations

Speaker:

thing that we initially order

Speaker:

now, but there's

Speaker:

money just

Speaker:

Ah,

Speaker:

happen via those conversations, feel like only happen in person are on

Speaker:

my

Speaker:

who really doesn't like picking up the phone

Speaker:

Join the club.

Speaker:

thing we're the same

Speaker:

to get over with that.

Speaker:

thought actually the last never liked phone calls I just don't like,

Speaker:

I feel like trapped to be Frank.

Speaker:

Like, I feel like I can't do anything, but on the phone and I'm

Speaker:

I have so much to do right now.

Speaker:

I don't know why

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

about that apparently,

Speaker:

I just always felt trapped in, like I had that realization two days ago I was like,

Speaker:

I just need to

Speaker:

if this is the reason, you could why are you fighting this so hard?

Speaker:

This

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you use a lot video chat type things.

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Is that after you've won jobs then co clients.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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can email you I I do lately, I've been doing a more video

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a to go with a quote as well, to give more context around something.

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Oh, nice.

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Oh, that's smart.

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Show off a few details in rhino, cuz typically I've drawn something as part

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of the quoting process and they a PDF drawing that goes with their quote.

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But then, you know, I just, you know, it comes back to my So I should

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There's not jump diving into a quick one minute video of

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detail.

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Yes, it's unresolved.

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here and we'll it,

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That's smart.

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one to two minutes of broad context.

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I was imagining some kind of like web app where it's like a drawing, but,

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but like in, let's say it's style.

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more whimsical something or less,

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have

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drawing.

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hover over a feature, it's just your little bubble pops up starts

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talking to you about a, a detail and then you go somewhere else.

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And it's another gem

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caricature

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Cute.

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to

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gem mail.

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I desperately need that kit parts custom Kitter parts every day at

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the moment, which is great, but

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Did you get any farther with that?

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That developer?

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could do it.

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He's really busy.

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We're still in talks next few weeks.

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Maybe we'll make some progress, but yeah.

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I did have the thought the other day of maybe

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was saying

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hungry young games designer who can design a sort of Nintendo 64 emulator,

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little with some game Cause we kind of in terms of the functionality and drag and

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simple

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How hard

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it would obviously have to be Teris based so they could never make any mistakes

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Well, that's what Ben said, like the parts

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Okay I I run

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Yeah.

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You only get one shot.

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Don't get upside down.

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goes into shopping cart and it's but we have chatted a little bit

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about your genius idea of just like printing out the components.

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Having a little cardboard cut out kit.

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I yeah, for sure.

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such good engagement, you know, like a sense of being able

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that

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somebody,

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inquired about is

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know, like to cover your cost, needed do that, so that people wouldn't

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just willynilly them all over

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right

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try how it goes, but if they

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email I find like the phone

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was trying to make a joke about farm to table.

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If they wanted, wanted a little slower version of manufacturing,

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to call

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send them the they could put it together and play with different parts

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Got potential.

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Have you made any progress on your neck

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Configurations?

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supposed to be working on that this week.

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I banged my head against thinking about it a lot yesterday.

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No, think I'm kind of resigned to put up a couple options for this show.

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Like we have horizontal and a vertical for this display we made.

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And then we're also bringing this weird thing that Ricky made that holds parts and

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goes in our bathroom to keep parts clean.

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It's a, it's a drying rack.

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That has the knack ball on it.

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We're gonna bring that.

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So it'll be like the offload station.

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So if people are interested, they can take stuff off of their

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rearrange, one on their own.

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And I'm either gonna just take photos or like set up a camera and

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like track of what people are either doing and then interface with them.

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And I'm hoping that I'll have some way to just price everything and just say,

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all right, well, this would cost this.

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Are you interested kind of thing, or I

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with.

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can call you back with detail in a week.

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when you say interface with them, do you mean talk to them?

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creep.

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Yes.

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Like a, like a, like the AI that you are

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would like to interface with you now about Nack Wall

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sales with Justin in

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and Jen the morning.

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I'll have a steaming hot cup of sales, please.

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of steaming 81 in here and I need to do some machining.

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Yeah.

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I'm we're an Aaron, Aaron 10 on the clock, so yeah,

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our new recording session We'll find

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hopefully

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if you heard worked somehow.

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We didn't have to disconnect three times.

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Go and make some aluminum chips.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I can't share this one, but I can share the fixture for it.

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It's very boring.

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Cool.

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cool.

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All right.

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Well, I'll catch you later.

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Catch there.

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Bye.

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Wait, is that a Justin health check pass.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Parts Department
Parts Department
Justin Brouillette (Portland CNC) and Jem Freeman (Like Butter) discuss CNC machines, their product design and manufacturing businesses, and every kind of tool that they fancy.

Listen for free

About your hosts

Profile picture for Jem Freeman

Jem Freeman

Co-founder and director of Like Butter, a CNC focussed timber design and manufacturing business in their purpose-built solar-powered workshop. Castlemaine, VIC, Australia.
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Justin Brouillette

Founder of Portland CNC & Nack